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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 9, 2003 - 11:25pm PT
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Left to right: Iraqis beat a statue of Saddam Hussein with their shoes; a Saddam statue is toppled in the center of Baghdad; Bilal Ali, 20, kisses a picture of President Bush while cheering 'you are our father!'
These scenes brought tears to my eyes this morning. Let's hear you say we should have left Saddam in power.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 10, 2003 - 01:32am PT
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I'm watching Fox news on mute as I type. I'm as happy as you are. But we've got to admit, the original task was an ongoing attempt to get rid of our enimies which posed a threat to us on OUR soil. The liberation of the Iraqi people was really just a nice bonus. I think Sadam is alive, in a cave, blowing Bin Laden. I don't honestly think we got the bastard, but I know he's running scared. Anyway, not to distract, Cheers. Where are the F-ing protesters now. (The ones in Oak-town are trying to buff dowel marks out of their posteriors!) France, Russia, & Germany can kiss our collective ass!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2003 - 02:12am PT
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There was never any question about our ability to kick Iraqi butt. The fact that it was so easy, for the second time, casts doubt on our excuses for going there in the first place.
We could get rid of the dictators that we support and their enemies would dance in the streets as well.
I’ve been told that questioning the war is an insult to our troops. I believe that democracy demands citizen debate about the grave issues of our time. I hate to alienate potential friends (and in my business-clients) with views that many won’t agree with. I try to respect other’s perspectives while sharing mine.
Soldiers don’t decide when they go to war or when to come home. Politicians do, and part of that depends upon input from public opinion. If the public attitude was unconditional support for war without regard for casualties, we might try to take Syria, then Iran, throw in Lebanon, then Libya, North Korea, and so on. That wouldn’t be supporting the troops. Plenty wouldn’t make it home.
It’s also a mistake to assume that our government has the troops best interests in mind just because they talk so appreciatively about them. Words are cheap. Serious scientists and plenty of military insiders have concluded that the use of depleted uranium munitions have toxic and debilitating results for civilians and our own soldiers alike. The veteran’s administration classifies 30% of the Gulf War vets as permanently disabled. The government has not supported the claims of those affected by Gulf War syndrome. There are plenty of reasons to believe that the use of depleted uranium munitions in this war will result in far more casualties, long term, among our ranks than any enemy fire. We could have kicked their butts without poisoning our own troops yet again.
We Americans like to keep things simple. "The war is about weapons of mass destruction" "The war is against one man, Saddam Hussein" Unfortunately, reality is more complicated. We support all kinds of dictators (including Saddam during the period of his worst crimes) and Iraq’s strategic resources and geography have a serious bearing on our actions. Iraq stage of development of weaponry was far from urgent enough to abandon the inspections in time for a 2003 war. For the second time, Iraq was easy to defeat and didn’t use WMD.
So what’s the real agenda and what are we doing there? I don’t know for sure and neither do you. We have to continue the debate and continue to think critically. The right course of action is in constant debate, even between the State Department and the Defense Department. Our sacrifice of the legitimacy of the United Nations may come back to haunt us as a crime against the world’s future. It is our "world" version of democracy and we failed it because it wouldn’t do what we want.
Iraq will be benefited from the war. There was no politically viable way for Iraq to get out of sanctions while Saddam was in charge. Sanctions that the UN estimated were responsible for 1.5 to 2 million preventable Iraqi deaths over the past 10 years including 500,00 children. They couldn’t go on like that. Something had to give.
Whether the US will be better off or not remains to be seen. We have strained our economy and our international credibility. We have established a doctrine of pre-emptive war against a country that presented no immediate threat. This precedent alone might be used as an excuse for untold injustice by every country who has potential enemies. If we knock off our five worst enemies, will we have made ten more? Will we enact more draconian laws curtailing civil liberties to suppress dissent? Or will we preserve the freedom here that we preach elsewhere?
I wish you all well. I hope the we find the wisdom to stop and do the right thing in the countries we have defeated, rather than marching on to institute American worldwide hegemony in the arrogant assertion of our superiority. I pray that my eyes will be opened where I am blind and that we will all keep our minds open. One thing is certain, nobody sees the whole big picture as we approach a serous turning point in world history.
Peace
Karl
I’ll leave you with a quote:
Naturally the common people don't want war...but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them that they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
--Herman Goering
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big wall gumby boy
Big Wall climber
the climbing void
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Apr 10, 2003 - 06:57am PT
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Jody,I am NEVER wrong.
I miss your bullshit opinions at RC.com.
Just kidding.But it is a bit of a bore there without you there,I cherished our heated debates.
Rich
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drb1215
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 10:21am PT
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Admit you were wrong???? That's like saying you have no right to speak up if you feel you question our goverment. After all, Bush and his boys work for us...not the other way around.
Even if the war continues at the pace that it is going, and Iraq is rid of it's leadership, I still question if we should have gone in in the first place. What cost do you think that this war will have on our economy? What cost do you think that this will have on our international relations?
Here we are spending $100 billion dollars to go to war, while our unemployment is through the roof...our schools are in terrible shape...more and more of our country is slipping into poverty. It seems to me that this war was a nice convient way for the Bush administration to take peoples attention away from the fact that our economy is in bad shape.
With jobs slipping away and stocks no where near where they were a few years ago...Why is it that housing is still outrageous, and the cost of secondary (college) going up to the point where only the rich can send their kids to private schools. Wouldn't it be nice if some of that $100 billion was used to help keep the cost of living reasonable? Be it low cost loans, non-defense contracts, shelters, etc.
I think that it's great that the people of Iraq are free from Sadam...but I think it's a sad state when you have to work, wondering if you'll have a job when you get there...or whether or not you'll be able to feed your family, or send the kids off to college. You can't remain a world leader, if your own country is falling apart!
db
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jman
Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
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Apr 10, 2003 - 10:53am PT
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I am so sick of seeing these biased and selective images sprayed all over the country via Internet, Newsapaper or TV.
So many people see these images of Iraqis "celebrating" and take it as real. Do you really know that that is the way people are feeling just because of Biased reports and selective pictures on Fox News. More photo editors need to stand up and show more shots of some of the true horrors which are occuring rather than of Iraqis celebrating and American soldiers celebrating blowing up buildings.
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John O'Connor
Boulder climber
Fort Fun
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Apr 10, 2003 - 11:04am PT
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Karl, that was excellent.
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Nibs
Trad climber
Trinidad, CA
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Apr 10, 2003 - 11:08am PT
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Karl:
well thought out, and well written. thank you.
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbing's good
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Apr 10, 2003 - 11:36am PT
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Jody, aren't you a bit early? Toppling Hussein was a fairly quick action as most people expected it to be. The "success" of the war will need to be measured in the long term--years or decades. Maybe Iraq will benefit, but this is not assured. It--or the region--could end up with long term civil war. The US is taking a gamble with all those people's lives. They were not asked of course. Remember that the US record of seeing things through has fallen far from its WWII high mark.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Bishop(hopefully)
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 12:15pm PT
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well said Karl.
was there any question as to the outcome of the war? if the U.S. had lost, it would have gone down as one of the biggest defeats in world history.
can the U.S. win the peace? that is the more important question.
will the U.S. be able to install a democratic form of government? how democratic can that government be when the U.S. is already deciding who will run that government?
arab nations have a history of autocratic governments. to assume that democracy will work in Iraq is a gamble.
it also appears that Bush has abandoned Afghanistan. so how long before he tires of Iraq? Bush is like the little kid that doesn't like the rules so he takes his marbles and finds somewhere else to play.
what has happened to that Usama guy?
rumor has it that he and Saddam are kickin back at this ranch down in texas.
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 10, 2003 - 12:18pm PT
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Forget it Jody. They won't do it. You and I would admit we were wrong, but it's too much to expect from others. And forget Saddam. I like the way it's completely fractured my real ememies - the anti-gun left wing Democrats. I think I'll donate $ 500.00 to the National Rifle Assoc. Institute for Legislative Action ( PAC ) and $ 500.00 to the Republican National Committee. I'm starting my own conservative pro gun jihad, while my enemies are weak!
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 12:23pm PT
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Karl-
Nice work on that post- I agree.
Jody-
That post was typical of your apparently simple minded appraoch to politically and socially complex situations. Perhaps you just want to gloat, but perhaps you actually fail to understand that no one on either side of the issue ever said SH was a great guy, or that his absence would be anything but a blessing for the people of Iraq. The debate was over war itself, the necessity for war, the timing of war, the justifications for war, the costs of war (both human and otherwise), and last but not least- the motivations for war in the first place!
btw-
The day after you posted that article from the Chronicle on the climber in Afganistan building schoos, etc., the same paper ran an article on the return of the Taliban to the area, their new-found ability to roam around and murder foreginers and intimidate Afgans in the relative absence of any sort of credible security forces or any type of law and order. Seems to me that the US's taste for the aftermath of war is far lower than our interest in the butt kicking on the front end...
We will have to wait a decade or so to even begin to determine what the global legacy of this war (these wars?) will be, and I honestly wonder if you have any real idea what I am talking about now...
-Matt
Ps- Ask yourself why all the papers show heroic Marines carrying injuried civilians or statues being pulled over by tanks and noone ever shows grandmothers crying over their dead children and grandchildren(?). I guess they are too busy celebrating all the statues being pulled over to cry about anything, otherwise we would see that too, right?
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 10, 2003 - 12:35pm PT
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Matt, your cynical view of the world is typical. I guess you didn't hear the Iraqi woman on the radio who escaped several years ago from Iraq. She stated that it didn't matter how many civilians were killed getting rid of Saddam because under Saddam they were as good as dead anyway. I'm going to call that $ 500.00 I send the the NRA's political PAC " the Matt Fund " in honor of you!
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scabang
climber
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Apr 10, 2003 - 12:39pm PT
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To the Dickless Tracy who started this post. Strap on an appendage from Good Vibrations , tuck your copy of Soldier of Fortune into your jackboots and join the other Dildo's at the range.
Better still - go out and do some climbing for a change. Preferably sans M16.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 10, 2003 - 12:45pm PT
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"our schools are in terrible shape"
Tell me about it...
Education is fun-duh-mental to a strong society. Without it, we are weak. Ignorance and stupidity cannot be conquered by the strength of any military.
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 12:46pm PT
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Guido-
I have a feeling we listen to different radio stations.
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 10, 2003 - 01:43pm PT
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I had to turn off NPR. At least we agree on one thing - climbing is GREAT! Maybe we should keep it at that.
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joker
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 01:50pm PT
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Suicide bombers are attacking Marines at checkpoints. This news is being put on the back burner -just part of the old propaganda machine.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20030410/ts_nm/iraq_suicide_deaths_dc
Iraq is just a big expensive mess -and we are footing the bill. These people will go back to their old ways. For every "enemy" killed, at least another will take his place, with the memory of a dead family member blown to pieces by the "liberators." Still 100% against this bullsh#t. I'm not interested in funding the US to be the world's policeman. The returns seem dubious indeed. Conquering Iraq was like stealing candy from a baby. Some threat. We're such bigshots & heroes, aren't we? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 02:09pm PT
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Matt, If the US is no longer in Afganistan, why did my friend's fiance just die in a USAF helicopter crash west of Kabul?
Don't believe everything you read. Seems like your liberal spout should know that by now.
BTW, what schools did you all go to? Mine were all great - everyone complains, but teachers have plenty of opportunities to get educated, and school funding averages 3-5000 per kid in most states.
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JR
climber
boulder, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2003 - 02:12pm PT
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Oh, Jody...
...you ignorant slut
How do yesterdays events prove that the anti-war camp is wrong?? Please tell us! Did anyone ever say that the outcome of this invasion was in doubt? Because this is all that happened... we kicked a weak enemy's ass.
Sure, Iraqis are probably greatful for the removal of Saddam's regime, but how has this made us safer? How has this diminished the threat of terrorism? Will the new government be much better, and not a pawn of the US? Will Iraqis be much better off in the long-run (there are thousands of Iraqi dead, and hundreds of US/Brits, so they sure as hell better be a whole lot better off)? Will administration buddies like Halliburton and ChevronTexaco be awarded lucrative contracts in Iraq?
More importantly, how has this improved the situation in the middle east? Has this solved the core issues that really plague the middle east, and as a result threaten us (e.g.- the Israel/Palestinian conflict, our pattern of supporting corrupt regimes to satisfy our oil addiction and other interests)?
It will be years before we know the outcomes of these situations.
I will admit this war was the right thing to do if the outcome adequately addresses those points.
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