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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
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"you say "flopped out"; i say "reached out""
Did you read the Snopes link about that 'story', bookworm? That baby & mother were both anesthetized...that kid did not have the ability to do anything except what gravity might have assisted. The 'story' as posted in this OP, and circulated widely via email, was the photographer's spin on that event- the physician largely debunked it as false and inaccurate.
Not that this will stop you, or other rabidly indoctrinated pro-lifers- this kind of falsehood will be spread far and wide to reinforce the indoctrinated, and hopefully gain more pro-life support from those who take it at face value, without verifying.
You know damn well this 'story' is largely fabricated, and using it to promote the prolife agenda is at the very least disingenuous.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
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i'm asking an honest question
if a 1st or 2nd trimester fetus is NOT a human life and can be disposed of as a matter of convenience, then why is an early stage miscarriage so upsetting to a pro-choice woman?
if losing a "potential" baby is understandably traumatic, then why isn't purposely aborting a "potential" baby equally abhorrent? moosie, your response clarifies that there is no difference between the wanted and unwanted child...the body's natural expulsion of unwanted/unnecessary cells should draw no more emotional toll than a woman's voluntary expulsion of identical unwanted/unnecessary cells
it seems to me the only difference in the two scenarios is one of causation; in the first situation, nature caused the loss of the baby, but in the second situation humans (or a single human) made a conscious decision to abort the baby
in my perspective, the former situation is sad but absent any moral element; the latter, however, because it is the result of conscious human action, is, inescapably, wrought with profound moral implication
please, explain why i'm wrong...i don't like being a "racist homophobic moron" but i can't reform without help...including explaining why being pro-life is racist, homophobic, or moronic
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
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bookworm, you and (to a somewhat lesser extent) bluering see the issue of abortion as pretty black & white: it's a human life, and anything that extinguishes it is virtually the same as murder.
Which would be fine and rational, if the 'victim' was a single human being. The problem is, when that baby is in the womb, there's two people involved. That makes it a whooole lot more complicated, no matter how badly you want it to be a simple issue.
For the most part, everyone is pro-life- no-one likes abortion. This issue (and so many other political issues these days) has a lot of commonality to it, and yet the extremists (esp. the 'pro-lifers') choose to portray abortion by holding up the most egregious abuses of it as birth control by a bunch of welfare-dependent, drug addicted prostitutes.
Most everyone would agree that abortion is sad and tragic. Most would probably agree that they'd rather not have their tax dollars go towards funding the majority of abortions, except perhaps in some particularly dire circumstances. Most would probably agree that all should be done to try to ensure abortion doesn't happen at all.
The extremists have held this issue hostage for a long time, with no desire to allow reasonable compromise- until that starts to happen, that's where it's going to continue to reside.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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first, let me remind everyone that margaret sanger--the founder of planned parenthood--was, in fact, a racist who saw abortion as a means of controlling population growth particularly among the 'lesser races'...that's not my opinion, that is what she said and wrote...and, in fact, there are a whole lot more black babies being killed in the womb than white babies so, arguably, it's the pro-choice crowd that has the more racist position
now, aside from rape (where i admit the pro-life position is harder to defend), there are TWO people involved in the making of that baby though one has no legal say in its abortion...second, i am not denying any woman's right to decide if she wants to have a baby; i'm just arguing that she needs to make that decision BEFORE she has sex; any woman who CHOOSES to have sex KNOWS that pregnancy is a possible outcome, ergo, she should take responsibility for her CHOICE
can anyone tell me EXACTLY when life begins?
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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WHY is that a critical answer for you, bookworm?
What do you intend to do with that information? Use it to try to simplify a situation that can't be simplified?
There will still be two lives involved in the issue, no matter what the answer is to that question.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Sep 29, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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WOW, this photo sure sparked some heated discussion.
All I can say is amazing photo! It was quite moving in it's own way.
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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Read the snopes link on the first page, Steve, for the real story. Amazing that such surgeries are done, but the description provided in the OP is skewed.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
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Ok, so religion is bunk. Let's toss it out the window.
Do we still have right and wrong?
By what standard is the killing of any person - child/adult/whatever - a crime?
Take religion out of it, and the fundamental questions don't really change at all.
This whole "rights" thing: life/choice/liberty/whatever - it's a religion of sorts, isn't it?
Can we really get rid of it?
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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So whether something is a person, whether it has rights, is a function of the technology available?
And what is "exist?"
What if person "C" was willing to take over?
It won't be long before we can take an embryo the whole distance in a test tube. Then what?
Do you really think you can provide a complete and consistent answer in just a few sentences?
I'd be impressed if you did. But I'd bet against you, or anyone else, providing such an answer.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
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Bookworm stated: there are a whole lot more black babies being killed in the womb than white babies so, arguably, it's the pro-choice crowd that has the more racist position
I think you mean blacks are aborted at a higher rate, not a higher number. More whites are aborted in terms of numbers.
Not that it matters anyway honestly. If you stand by your earlier statement, I'd be interested in seeing the citation for your statement.
As far as your friend's thoughts, you'd have to ask her. A guess may be that wanting to have a choice (i.e., pro choice) doesn't mean one would ever have an abortion. For example, people like to have the choice to vote, but a whole lot of them do not exercise it. Wanting choice and acting are separate.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
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A friend's child was born at 25 weeks weighing 1 lb 4 oz. It has been 5 weeks, and that child continues to fight for life. He is now 2 lbs but still has issues with breathing. I've been watching this roller coaster of baby is doing better, off ventilator to baby is in distress, back on ventilator, aggressive steroid treatments. This child is probably doing as well as anyone can hope for being so small. There is nod doubt that the little one responds to the world around him and the touch of his family.
I love the reflexive grab from babies. It is endearing, and stirs in most a nuturing response. This is absolutely necessary for the survival of the little one. Babies are cute to evoke our protective response. Teenagers are ornery so that we can let go.
I have been a single teenage mother. The world tries to force a choice on you. You wouldn't believe how many people push the choice of abortion as the best path unless you were a pregnant teenager. I believe in supporting a young woman who decides to carry her baby to term. She may not have the support of her family, and she certainly will get a lot of pressure to abort from society, teachers, boyfriends, ..... I am very glad that I had my son, though it was one of the most difficult times of my life. Maybe I am fooling myself, but I think I have more a right to my opinion as I have been there and walked the talk. I am pro-life, not anti-abortion. I don't like it when others try to label my opinion to suit their politics.
There are always horrific cases people can trot out to support their opinion. The embryo is not just a collection of cells. When you trivialize the child's existence in favor of the mom, that dehumanizes all. I could never choose abortion even if I were faced with having an imperfect child. There should be limits on the taking of all life. I can live with a society that carefully places limits. Making it a free for all where abortion is merely another form of birth control, I can't buy that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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Well stated, Seamstess. I agree completely.
And prayers to the premature baby of your friend. God bless!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
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blue,
But not everyone is brought it into the world so willingly. They may have been raped or more commonly date raped; they may have been forced to have sex by an abusive spouse or abusive significant other. They may have been incested. In some third world countries such as Africa they may have been impregnated by soldiers on the winning side. It is not always so cut and dry.
There is good emergency contraception available now which is quite effective s/p the event in question and that might include simply a broken condom. It might also include rape, incest, military plundering, etc. I would encourage wider use of these methods so as to avoid facing the more emotionally tormenting ones.
Lois, try to pay f*#king attention. A while back I said I would condone certain precedures incertain cases. Rape, mother's health, etc...
Wes is just an as#@&%e. I'd call him an SOB, but his Mom was prolly a nice gal. He's a boisterous, leg-humping, self-intelligent, wanna-be intellectual.
He portrays himself as liberal and open-mided, yet is hateful and bigoted to anybody of faith and morality.
He's a hateful dick.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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as long as they don't involve themselves in business practices that seek short term profits over the health of society and the environment we all have to share
What are your thoughts on Planned Parnthood and their Fed funding, and their origins?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Why should the fed be paying for that? Why not leave it a state choice?
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apogee
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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"Making it a free for all where abortion is merely another form of birth control, I can't buy that. "
I was more or less with you until that last sentence. Then you lost me.
Once again, the RR/Pro-Life/Repug propaganda machine can claim success- taking the statistical rarity and creating the impression that it is the norm.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Sep 30, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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Wes, just curious about how you arrive at "right and wrong." Is your morality based on pragmatism?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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I am genuinely curious about the thought process behind those who are opposed to abortion but okay if it is due to rape or incest or war.
I absolutely understand the horrors of rape. And incest. And the horrors of war. That is not what I'm getting at.
Regardless of the cause, that fetus is still a fetus. I am curious at how some of you arrive at human life as the most precious thing, but are okay with aborting it if it is due to rape/incest/war.
Not looking for a fight, just trying to understand that apparent contradiction in a pro-life stance.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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Crimpie, it because you're being forced to have unwanted sex with a monster. Of course, I only support the abortion if it's done ASAP. Before the fetus develops significantly.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Sep 30, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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Thanks for your input about that.
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