Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 28, 2011 - 02:15am PT
|
Here is the story:
A picture began circulating in November. It should be "The Picture of the Year," or perhaps, "Picture of the Decade." It won't be. In fact, unless you obtained a copy of the U.S. paper which published it, you probably would never have seen it.
The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named Joseph Bruner. The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an obstetrics nurse in Atlanta. She knew of Dr. Bruner's remarkable surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, he performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb.
During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and makes a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr. Bruner completed the surgery on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed hand through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. Dr. Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was the most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile.
The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity. The editors titled the picture, "Hand of Hope." The text explaining the picture begins, "The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life."
Little Samuel's mother said they "wept for days" when they saw the picture. She said, "The photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability or an illness, it's about a little person" Samuel was born in perfect health, the operation 100 percent successful. Now see the actual picture, and it is awesome...incredible....and hey, pass it on! The world needs to see this one!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 03:02am PT
|
I've seen this one before.
I could make this an arguement against late-term abortion...but I won't.
Simply amazing, and very 'touching'.....
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
|
alleyehave... interesting. I guess there are at least two sides ala Rashomon.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
|
That is an amazing photo & story, and what the pro-life/anti-abortion wingnuts will do with it is disturbing.
By the way...what's the source of that pic? It has the look and tone of propaganda.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
|
apogee, check the snopes link posted by alleyehave.
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
|
That is an amazing photo & story, and what the pro-life/anti-abortion wingnuts will do with it is disturbing.
What will they do with it?
And why is it disturbing?
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
|
Sorry, missed that, Scuffy.
Snopes does it again. Too bad you can't cut & paste from their site (not easily, anyway)- the truth about that pic should be as obvious as the 'story' that accompanied it.
What will the pro-lifers do with it? A major element of their political strategy to repeal Roe v Wade and restrict/outlaw abortion has been to 'humanize' (poor word, I know) the fetus by trying to define the point at which it gains the same human rights as anyone else- which would make abortion at any time equivalent to murder. 'Stories' and images like that will make great emotional fodder for that agenda.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
|
the point at which it gains the same human rights as anyone else
= the point at which it can survive outside the womb
= 24 weeks (unless the mother's life is at stake)
Of course the right won't like this. But if they say a zygote has rights, that effectively means people with infertility problems can't produce zygotes for reproduction, and deny them the ability to have children.
Of course the far left won't like this. But is it really ok to kill a fetus at 39 weeks, where the only thing keeping it from being a child is that it's on the inside?
And of course this is what Roe v Wade ended up meaning.
|
|
Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
|
Have we already "defined the point at which [a fetus] gains the same human rights as anyone else?"
Or haven't we?
How can anyone even discuss the issue and not try define that point in time?
What is the answer based upon? Some arbitrary point in time?
A common answer I hear is "the ability to survive outside the womb." But technology changes that every day. And there are lots of exceptions - if a premature baby requires life support, is it ethical to just toss it?
Or does it really come down to whether somebody "wants" the baby?
Seems like we don't really have an answer to a very important question. We just carry on as if we do.
Are we just avoiding the question because we might not like the answer?
On another topic, gay rights, one of the most profound questions I ever heard was asked by one of your [apogee's] favorite entertainers, Jon Stewart: "When did you decide to be straight?"
That question solidified my opinions on homosexuality. Because I know the answer to that question is that "I did not choose." That simple, succinct question (and it's obvious answer) demonstrates that homosexuality is not a choice.
The abortion debate also comes down to one simple question: "At which point along the biological process of development does a fetus gain human rights?"
I'm not necessarily "anti abortion," but I must say I've never heard anyone on the "pro choice" side ever give me a sensible, logically consistent answer to the question.
I'm not trying to start an abortion debate - we won't solve it here. Just pointing out that I think much of the discussion is often just avoiding the crux. BOTH sides are guilty of avoiding the hard questions.
EDIT: I see Fet beat me to it. Looks like you get it.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
|
Tami... I thought it was always answered by fat, white men in Washington.
|
|
the goat
climber
north central WA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
|
Hey, I resemble that remark! There are plenty of fat white men in Idaho and Oregon too. And Tami lives in BC's lower mainland.......full of fatties there too.
|
|
ps
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
|
What was actually said:
"The child reached out."
"Oh, they do that all the time."
Ha ha ha. It's frankly hilarious when someone takes the time to write such sentimental embelishments, which Snopes has come to call "glurge."
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
|
It really is about 'humanizing' the fact of a developing little baby. Literally, the epitomy of innocent human life.
In my opinion, abortions done after the first trimester are manslaughter. I agree that women should have dominion over their 'bodies', but when you are so irresposible to forego birth control, then kill your baby as soon as possible. Before it can feel pain and develop brain activity and nerval response, if you have to.
Women 'dehumanize' this by saying it's about their 'bodies' with no apparent regard for the little body trying to develop inside them. The innocent baby that they brought into this world.
I balance my anti-abortion stance by saying that if you have to abort, do it ASAP. After the first trimester, to me, is ridiculous and that's where it starts to become immoral and quite franky, is morbid and disgusting.
Late-term abortion, in the 3rd trimester, is absolutely inexcusable to me. That is murder.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
|
How many pro-lifers actually spend any quality time with their kids...?
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
|
Anencephaly is one of the causes an individual pursues a late-term abortion. I won't post the photos here - check the link below. Does anyone here think the mother and father who are faced with this take any joy in the choice before them? Are they dehumanizing their baby or faced with the unimaginable?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly
Is it better to go to term to harvest the born-dying babies organs? Some want to, but have to wait the 45 minutes or so while the baby dies upon birth. More info if interested:
http://highschoolbioethics.georgetown.edu/units/unit1_3.html
People in the position are crushed and devastated. A baby they wanted and loved and dreamed of is going to be born dying if they go to term. 95% of individuals who learn this about their infant chose abortion - often late term. And for that, they get the scorn of others.What would you do? Not an easy thing to deal with. I only know that instead of scorn I have great compassion for them all.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
|
How many pro-lifers actually spend any quality time with their kids...?
That is idiotic on many levels....
Define 'pro-lifers', and then define 'quality-time'.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
|
Wow, Crimpie, hold on here.
Maybe I mis-represented the ratioanle for abortion. Of course there are cases where it makes sense.
But you are a bright enough gal to realize what I was saying, right?
That people confuse useless abortions with medical necessity. Right?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
|
No more like people confuse talk show rhetoric with reality.
But whatever.
DMT
Lame. This is what people do when they cannot converse. Attack. Accuse. And they marginalize.
So be it, Dingus.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!