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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sep 27, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
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Joe, I really hope you've got it that dialed with calculation skills far exceeding my own. I hope to never attend your memorial service, and though frankly I expect you to go before I do, I trust you'll attend mine and nod your head sagely if I precede you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 03:56am PT
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Off, I'm positively honored by the invitation and will be sure to attend whenever that sad day comes! I have strict instructions that there be a party with a band, hard liquor, and good food when I go - you're definitely invited in the highly unlikely event of a reversal of our fortunes.
My calculation skills are fine, I worry far more about a slip-up when I'm not actually moving over the stone leading as then I don't have to be concerned about the 'cadet' factor because I'm focused. I also like to think the amount of roped-soloing I do and have done over the years forces me to monitor myself a bit more in that regard, though.
But in thirty seven years I know of very few old guys who've died while leading, but it seems like I know of far too many who died somewhere between their home and the sharp end or during the return trip.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 28, 2011 - 06:29am PT
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What about selfish validation?
I don't care if anyone else climbs it as long as a I get my name in the book for an unrepeated scare fest VS I want to put up a climb that will be fun for a lot of people.
No ammount of argueing to the contrary will convince me that many of the scare fests out there were not done with pride of creating a scarefest and pride in the reporting of that scarefest. That was how you won the prize BINTD and humans like to win.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 28, 2011 - 06:38am PT
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If you truely do not care about anyone other than yourself when doing an FA then why not allow your poorly bolted scare fest to be fixed once you are done with it? You got your jollys and did not give a hoot about anyone else who followed. You are now done with your route so why not just let it be retroed? The answer is pride. They want that legacy. They want to own that piece of rock for eternity.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 28, 2011 - 08:24am PT
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tradsmanclimbs,
it seems the climbing literature, like guidebooks with descriptions of runouts, preserves the historical facts of these legacy/pride climbs. Apparently for some of these route makers just the history on paper and cyberspace is not enough, they want a monument. Do the locals owe them a monument?
As I have said before, if Henry had not infringed on the "project ownership" of three locals I suspect there would have been a bolt at this same high place and we would not have this discussion.
Henry told me over the phone prior to the Superpin climb that I must bring my bolt kit when he attempted this climb. Having no bolt kit seemed so ironic that I ask him what was the matter with his. He showed me a quite unused bolt driver(no mushroomed head) and a kit that contained a #14 bit but studs that required a #12 bit. I did not ask anymore but was not very assured of Henry's bolting skills, yet I thought this show could be a joke. But indeed he did want my bolt kit present when the lead began. After the climb Herny alluded that he had little bolt placing experience.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 28, 2011 - 09:59am PT
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Joe...you remind me of an old republican when it come to climbing. Closed mind and my way or the highway.
Progressive thinking has always change climbing...not regressive.
Change is good...you just don't like the change.
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SeaClimb
climber
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Sep 28, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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Joseph says: "...My calculation skills are fine, I worry far more about a slip-up when I'm not actually moving over the stone leading as then I don't have to be concerned about the 'cadet' factor because I'm focused. I also like to think the amount of roped-soloing I do and have done over the years forces me to monitor myself a bit more in that regard, though..."
Hmmmm...
One interview of Bachar from the nineties had him saying he had roughly a one in a million chance of falling while soloing because he was that in control (and i believe(d) him)....
Years later, there was an article about him where he thought he'd climbed over a million vertical feet. I guess one could say that the odds are what they are and he played out the statistical side of it and left behind family and friends that cared about him and mourn his departure daily (I cried when i read that post from his son, still tears me up pretty bad as a dad myself). Maybe you should revisit your "calculating" capabilities as i'm pretty sure Bachar's got you beat in spades.
That being said, we all are going to die and there are myriad ways of saying adios...
Peace and be safe,
Rudy
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
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tradmanclimbs: What about selfish validation? I don't care if anyone else climbs it as long as a I get my name in the book for an unrepeated scare fest VS I want to put up a climb that will be fun for a lot of people.
No ammount of argueing to the contrary will convince me that many of the scare fests out there were not done with pride of creating a scarefest and pride in the reporting of that scarefest. That was how you won the prize BINTD and humans like to win.
Possibly, but in general I don't buy it. As the author of the main PDX guide was doing his latest edition I specifically asked him to leave all my routes out of it. I haven't seen it so I don't know whether he honored that request or not.
tradmanclimbs: If you truly do not care about anyone other than yourself when doing an FA then why not allow your poorly bolted scare fest to be fixed once you are done with it? You got your jollys and did not give a hoot about anyone else who followed. You are now done with your route so why not just let it be retroed? The answer is pride. They want that legacy. They want to own that piece of rock for eternity. [Dingus McGee's assertion as well...]
Ha, that's sure a good one. But it does pretty much sum up a lot of the mentality I see around here - next, next, next. I like my routes and tend to repeat most of them a couple of times a year and each of them helps me know where I'm at on the journey getting back into shape. Given that, I don't want them butchered or dumbed down. Don't want to climb them as they were put up? Fine, then don't.
G_Gnome: If you never find your limits how do you know how hard you can push. But then maybe most people never want to find this out.
I'd say there are skill, physical, mental, emotional, creative, and judgment limits involved with climbing and most folks are only interested in one or two of them.
SeaClimb: Maybe you should revisit your "calculating" capabilities as i'm pretty sure Bachar's got you beat in spades.
He may have had me beat in spades on a lot of fronts but, unfortunately, and in hindsight, risk management wasn't one of them. I suspect neither my identity nor emotions are as dependent on climbing in that respect.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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Joe...you remind me of an old republican when it come to climbing. Closed mind and my way or the highway. Progressive thinking has always change climbing...not regressive. Change is good...you just don't like the change.
And you remind me of a new republican, extracting gain from more and more resources without a regard or thought of broader consequences. "Progress" is again in eye of the beholder. Lots of people think fast food is 'progress' as do folks who mine ever increasing tons of earth for vanishingly small amounts of gold. It's all a matter of perspective.
I like seeing advances in climbing, but I'm not blind to how they are derived from what demographic and what the effect of that demographic is on both climbing and rock.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 28, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
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this from a previous thread that joe posted on....
One recent route which I've repeated twice has once pitch with a crux consisting of a structure of three interconnected loose flakes where you have to 'set' the two flakes on the right to lock or anchor the one on the left into place and then use it exclusively to pull the crux. The pro below it is ok, but it's an overhanging section above a slab and so it has an R rating for both the potential for pulling the three flakes down on yourself and for the possibility of a slab fall if you and you belayer aren't paying real good attention to the slack situation.
The FA I've currently been working on has a p3 that traverses a [rare] band of Smith-like tuft, but in the form of blocks about the size of cars several of which are loose. That 70' lower section of the pitch takes you to the base of a large roof which is of more normal, good stone, but is comprised of very technical moves and sports poor protection until you are established under the roof. It also trends far to the right over the void such that getting back to the belay can be quite challenging. It's rated R for that combination of reasons.
no offense....but the routes you are describing sound like piles of crap. have it it, i am sure they are detined to be classics....not.
by the way, is beacon the only place you climb at it anyway? if one actually gets out and travels its amazing how your eyes get opened up.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 28, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
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Joe..your ego is getting the best of you...Leave "my" routes out of guidebook. Do you own the land??
Joe wrote: I'd say there are skill, physical, mental, emotional, creative, and judgment limits involved with climbing and most folks are only interested in one or two of them.
So what and why does that eat away at you?
Joe wrote: Ha, that's sure a good one. But it does pretty much sum up a lot of the mentality I see around here - next, next, next. I like my routes and tend to repeat most of them a couple of times a year and each of them helps me know where I'm at on the getting journey back into shape. Given that, I don't want them butchered or dumbed down. Don't want to climb them as they were put up? Fine, then don't.
No worry there...choss piles tend to not get repeated.
Joe wrote: And you remind me of a new republican, extracting gain from more and more resources without a regard or thought of broader consequences.
Just what am I taking??? You have no idea what you are talking about.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 28, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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Dingus, he should have put a red tag on the first crystal.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 28, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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mike m,
this was before the day of sport climbing and red tags. As I remember the scene, all three of these (local)folks ask me if I was working on Superpin.
The dirtiest play back then was to ask a person what he was working on and then go do it.
My reply soon became, "Do you want to know my achievements or my aspirations". If they wanted to know my aspirations I had a potpouri for them. Henry got to experience some of my potpouri offerings. No prizes were awarded.
I will take that back about prizes awarded. I always got the backoff bootie that Henry left.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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Bob D'A: Joe..your ego is getting the best of you...Leave "my" routes out of guidebook. Do you own the land??
Nope, just not into guidebooks and didn't want my routes included. Quite quite the opposite of the motivational picture tradmanclimbs was asserting given two of the routes are not PG-friendly.
Bob D'A: So what and why does that eat away at you?
Due to the impact of the demographic that perception of climbing has spawned.
Bob D'A: Just what am I taking??? You have no idea what you are talking about.
Not you personally, but feeding the demographic that produces our current advances.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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Hawkeye: no offense....but the routes you are describing sound like piles of crap. have it it, i am sure they are destined to be classics....not.
None taken, Beacon is what it is and both of those routes are actually fabulous - you just have to be aware of what you're doing and tread lightly over a spot or two. I've repeated the first five times now and the second is a work in progress with the UPS truck-sized block staying over five leads across it to-date.
Hawkeye: by the way, is beacon the only place you climb at it anyway? if one actually gets out and travels its amazing how your eyes get opened up.
I've climbed all over so yeah, I know what's out there. When I get tired of Beacon I usually go to Red Rock, SoIll, Eldo, or the Gunks which happens more infrequently than I would like.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
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stinkeye: Sorry, I am a little slow... but now I get it. This thread isn't about other people and their stance on bolts. Its another thread about how pure and rad your ethics are, and how everyone else sold out or sucks; or in other words, the Heal-ego.
Not at all, plenty of people here on ST on both sides of the equation. But when people inquire or challenge me related on specifics of my climbing I answer in that context. The point of the thread was about older folks, their choices around their ethics as they've aged, and the influence of those choices on the wider demographic over time.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 28, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Some people get old, crochety and nasty as they age, some mellow out, some seem to hold onto whatever it was that drove them since day one. It has nothing to do with whether or not one is a climber.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
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Some people get old, crochety and nasty as they age, some mellow out...
So those are the choices? Good to know, I've always wondered...
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 28, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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Joe wrote: Nope, just not into guidebooks and didn't want my routes included. Quite quite the opposite of the motivational picture tradmanclimbs was asserting given two of the routes are not PG-friendly.
They are not your routes...they are public land. I done over 1,800 FA's and I don't own one of those routes.
Joe wrote: Due to the impact of the demographic that perception of climbing has spawned.
What impact and where? Please compare with other outdoor sports (hiking, biking, mountain biking, skiing etc..) please.
Joe wrote: I've climbed all over so yeah, I know what's out there. When I get tired of Beacon I usually go to Red Rock, SoIll, Eldo, or the Gunks which happens more infrequently than I would like.
How much time at sport areas?? Funny...I climbed most of the hard routes in the Gunks and Eldo in the late 70's and early 80's...most people top roped them first now...really doesn't bother me in the least...only when they say they are trad climbing.
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