Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Because climbing is an exceptionally risky undertaking compared to, say, a picnic at the base, I still think individual insurance is a prudent requirement. Yes, I'd make it mandatory for climbers to have insurance for their particular route(s). I also think that it is not the job of the NPS to manage that insurance. I am impressed with the interface of private, public, volunteer and paid personnel who respond to SAR on Rainier. I am still studying this issue, so my thinking is still shifting.
The issue in your statement is "mandatory", which implies that some entity will be required to enforce this. I can't fathom how any entity other than the land manager could do this, in this case the NPS. On Rainier, they did manage it, and it has been successful. One could say the same for Shasta.
Interesting to think about.
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
|
|
On average 12 high school football players die each year.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
Climbing in Texas is over rated.
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
Ken M,
Your point is well taken.
(Below are all hypothetical numbers for purposes of this discussion only. They will probably bear little if any relationship to the reality of the data.)
On the one hand, a parsing of SAR events by activity might reveal a higher percentage of SAR events for climbers than for strollers, per capita. It might be 25 SAR events per 500 climbers, and only 12 SAR events per 500 day hikers. Day hikers, however, may be twenty times more numerous than climbers.
It does not follow that climbing-related SAR expenditures exceed those for other activities— when we consider that other activities with significantly greater populations of participants may have a higher cumulative expenditure.
I think this is what you meant, but please correct me if I am mistaken.
Obviously, I am still working through my thinking process on this issue. Thank you again for your input, as it is of some significance to me.
Thank you.
feralfae
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
ff:
You are the greatest. Well, there was Ali. Will you settle for second greatest?
If not the greatest, then the elegantist (is that a word)?
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
zb,
Thank you for the kind words.
I do not aspire to rout the Champ. :) Or other Champs.
I'll settle for a place just about anywhere in the empyrean.
And elegantist is a nice work, thank you.
:)
ff
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
It does not follow that climbing-related SAR expenditures exceed those for other activities
I would disagree based on the complexity of many climbing rescues which, if the participants
were paid, would be very expensive. Even given the volunteerism helo time can run into the
dozens of hours. This, of course, pales in comparison to the recent search for the two Florida
teen boaters. If the Coast Guard did an accurate accounting how many millions did that cost?
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
Good point, Reilly.
For purposes of this discussion, I'd like to focus on
1) SAR activities in National Parks
2) The risk associated with a sorted sampling of activities in NPs to determine an SAR incident ratio based on SAR events per 1,000 activity participants, by activity, and Park, if possible, perhaps by exact location (which mountain? which ascent?) (very actuarial)
3)The average cost of an SAR event by activity
4) The aggregate cost of SAR events by activity
5) Investigating the role self-insurance has or might have with respect to climbing-related SARs in the National Parks, the present policy(ies)—for the very reason you mention: the often impressive expenditure of resources for climbing-related SARs.
This is a work in process. I am still sorting this out. Thank you for your input. It is helpful.
feralfae
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
feral, I think you've set the bar impossibly high, at least in terms of accessing meaningful data.
My position is that it would be much simpler, and much cheaper to the taxpayers, if we just
went with the Europeans' model. With everyone of even marginal intelligence buying the
requisite insurance it is laughably cheap. Then you have professional guides doing the
rescues and everyone goes home happy, except for the obvious ones.
See how simple that was? ;-)
signed,
Took Part In Too Many SAR Circuses
BTW, I belong to the Austrian Alpine Club cause they have the best insurance - worldwide!
$120 for the wife and me!
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
One other issue to think about: the skill required and ongoing training costs for technical rescues not needed for other rescues.
It may be trivial in the big picture, but may not be.
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
Yes, Reilly, that is pretty much where I started my thinking: using the Euro model. Austrian Alpine has a good program, and there is the NGO/NFP out of Switzerland and Lichtenstein with equipment and staffing for SAR activities. But there seems to be resistance in this country (a nascent and rough conclusion on my part) to individual climbers taking responsibility for being insured. There appears to be a reliance on government to take care of SAR efforts. In Europe, in many areas, having climbing insurance seems to be a given.
Since that paradigm of individual responsibility seems unacceptable to some climbers who want assistance and protection, as well as SAR, from or through government entities, I though it would be good to examine the models.
Your thoughts are most appreciated.
Yes, my data thresholds may be too high, but this is also the very sort of data gleaning that bureaucrats love to do. I'll see where it goes.
Thank you
feralfae
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
Yes, Ken M, the training and skill levels required tend to narrow the field of acceptable volunteers/ other climbers for SAR efforts.
Thank you.
feralfae
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
Doug, I'm with you in spirit but, to be blunt, your writing style is terrible. It's divisive, shocking, off-putting and often confusing.
It seems like you consider major portions of the human race to be bad or evil without hope. People have been given the job of solving problems. They take the job because they need the money to eat. They may not be the most qualified but they are the ones that applied and are willing to work for whatever pay is offered. And most would rather be doing something else.
Yes this is a horrible injustice.
The non-climbing taxpayer who has no interest in our level of adventure feels the injustice of having to pay to rescue the unfortunate failures of outdoor recreationists. And there are more of them than us.
Try being friendly to your opposition. Edit out all the accusative bits. Get to the point of the solutions. Seek to see the other guy's viewpoint.
It would be great if there were no taxes and no one ever needed government help of any kind.
|
|
feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
|
|
Spider, you have a good heart.
Now then, back to talking about insurance and stuff. :)
I am doing more research when I have time, but have an art show I am working on right now, so my attention here will be a bit less for a while.
feralfae
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!