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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 3, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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The Alaskan Alpine Club has emailed and uploaded its proposal for eliminating the climbing taxes (fees) in the US, specifically those of Rainier and Denali National Parks....
http://AlaskanAlpineClub.org/ClimbingTaxes.html
Climbers might especially note the separate section on the Access Fund, down the page a ways.
The admitted goal of the Access Fund is fully funding the National Parks. That is NOT the goal of the climbers. A primary goal of climbers is to climb without government hassles and without being singled out as the only outdoor recreation group in the nation that must pay a special tax for the RIGHT to walk (climb) on PUBLIC land.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to fully fund the notoriously greedy, insatiable National Park Service bureaucracy, and the Access Fund is attempting that impossibility at the expense of climbers. Each time you buy products from a company that donates to the Access Fund, you are screwing-over the climbers, much to the delight of the Park Service cronies.
Alaskan Alpine Club members can laugh robustly. The power-damaged minds of the Park Service chaps, like all government sorts, know only more power and more money. Their minds have zero comprehension of human rights or any value in human rights. They and their Access Fund and American Alpine Club cronies will continue to attack human rights (the not-lawfully-taxable RIGHT to walk on public land) until the inherent human reaction. Kiss the National Park system goodby.
The Soviet leaders thought that communism was invincible, and the US leaders think that their DemocanRepublicrat War and Police Regime is invincible, like all such power-damaged minds. Pitiably ignorant sorts, clueless of history.
In the internet age, enough actual climbers will soon recognize what the Access Fund, American Alpine Club and other environmentalist cronies did to climbers and human rights. You cannot get away from those organizations fast enough if you are on record as supporting them while claiming to be a "climber".
The tourists who climb Denali and Rainier cannot escape becoming identified as a "Disgrace to the history of mountain climbing." Go ahead, try. Keep supporting the Park Service taxes on the RIGHT to walk on PUBLIC land. But wisely count the troops of the Park Service "Sheriff of Nottingham", versus the number of Americans who are belatedly starting to understand the value of their diminishing RIGHTS.
Respectfully, DougBuchanan, Alaskan Alpine Club paperwork guy
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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I know its not public land, but I used to sneak into the Gunks when it was only a couple of bucks for a pass. Would this make me eligible for membership in the Alaskan Alpine Club?
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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Word Doug! Taxes are destruction.
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pc
climber
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^^^ Where are the rescue dollars going to come from? Spread the tax across all the park users? Just tax the rescue'ees? Not stirring the sh#t, just curious about possible alternatives/solutions.
pc
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nice use of adjectives (fallacy of Argument By Emotive Language, Argument By Vehemence) and taking matters out of context (another logical fallacy).
Less opinion and rhetoric and more facts would make a more compelling argument.
Taxes are a hot button issue with the right and libertarians, but user fees don't fall within the traditional definition of taxes -- despite your attempt to claim that they are specific levies used for general purposes (and where are the facts to support that conclusion)?
Nice Rant, as usual.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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take the tin foil off your tea party hat..
Access Fund does good work for the good of all climbers.
PAy the fee and get the services that go with it.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Live free Doug! Thanks for the update.
The Alaskan Alpine Club has emailed and uploaded its proposal for eliminating the climbing taxes (fees) in the US, specifically those of Rainier and Denali National Parks....
http://AlaskanAlpineClub.org/ClimbingTaxes.html
Climbers might especially note the separate section on the Access Fund, down the page a ways.
The admitted goal of the Access Fund is fully funding the National Parks. That is NOT the goal of the climbers. A primary goal of climbers is to climb without government hassles and without being singled out as the only outdoor recreation group in the nation that must pay a special tax for the RIGHT to walk (climb) on PUBLIC land.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to fully fund the notoriously greedy, insatiable National Park Service bureaucracy, and the Access Fund is attempting that impossibility at the expense of climbers. Each time you buy products from a company that donates to the Access Fund, you are screwing-over the climbers, much to the delight of the Park Service cronies.
Alaskan Alpine Club members can laugh robustly. The power-damaged minds of the Park Service chaps, like all government sorts, know only more power and more money. Their minds have zero comprehension of human rights or any value in human rights. They and their Access Fund and American Alpine Club cronies will continue to attack human rights (the not-lawfully-taxable RIGHT to walk on public land) until the inherent human reaction. Kiss the National Park system goodby.
The Soviet leaders thought that communism was invincible, and the US leaders think that their DemocanRepublicrat War and Police Regime is invincible, like all such power-damaged minds. Pitiably ignorant sorts, clueless of history.
In the internet age, enough actual climbers will soon recognize what the Access Fund, American Alpine Club and other environmentalist cronies did to climbers and human rights. You cannot get away from those organizations fast enough if you are on record as supporting them while claiming to be a "climber".
The tourists who climb Denali and Rainier cannot escape becoming identified as a "Disgrace to the history of mountain climbing." Go ahead, try. Keep supporting the Park Service taxes on the RIGHT to walk on PUBLIC land. But wisely count the troops of the Park Service "Sheriff of Nottingham", versus the number of Americans who are belatedly starting to understand the value of their diminishing RIGHTS.
Respectfully, DougBuchanan, Alaskan Alpine Club paperwork guy
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Effing Alasks scrounging bums trying to steal even MORE money from the rest of the climbing community of the US! They got all the mountains over 15k, they want all the money, all the guiding, all the profits, none of the expenses associated with it.....everyone else pays for it, they get all the profit.
what percentage of the taxes that they pay do they get back? OVER 100%!!!!
WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY GRIPING ABOUT! THEY WANT MORE???
Effing welfare bums.
Get a job Buchanan, stop living off the dole.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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...user fees don't fall within the traditional definition of taxes...
This is correct, since only the users are subject to these fees.
In another regard; the fact that these fees are imposed by an agency of the state also means that the state assumes a level of liability or a responsibility to rescue.
Sketchy should chime in here and comment on my obviously amateur lawyering...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Without bothering to recount how the term "taxes" has been applied and interpreted by fiscal conservatives for the last 30+ years, the philosophy behind this is interesting.
Simplified, collection of general levies (e.g., income, property, sales, etc.) that are then allocated to purposes that may not directly benefit a particular taxpayer are not only taxes, but are the type of taxes that raise the most ire from the Right.
[Note: In the current political climate, some have termed this Socialism -- which to be fair, any government activity not solely serving the personal interests of the power elite is a form of socialism.]
The solution devised by "fiscal" conservatives (Reagan really pushed this concept) was to limit government functions, AND to have many of those "non-essential" functions that remained, supported by the individuals who utilized them -- viola: higher User Fees and less general fund allocations. [A more cynical view would be that this was merely cover to defund Gov't regulation that was viewed as inhibiting any possible for profit enterprise -- which is nowdays an openly asserted goal.]
It is odd to see this form of Nimbyism turned on its head in the present context and a targeted user fee be retermed a tax. Presumably the passionate individuals posting here have either not climbed in Denali NP or if they did, would eschew rescue as an un-needed government function; relying instead solely on personal responsibility and "grit."
The above rhetoric seems to parallel (or dare I saw Parrot) the descent of the Right from a conservative philosophy into a system of "beliefs" that are often inconsistent and subject to continual revisionism and "cultural revolution."
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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The fee is a tax, and climbers are disporportionately singled out to pay the tax - because we are a tiny minority and the general public has no sympathy for "reckless climbers".
Beyond that, the arguments aren't persuasive.
The fees do not go for rescue. That is a separate budget, held park wide. Hikers and campers drain the rescue budget far more than climbers, but there is much more public sympathy for them.
Too much of the fees go into collecting the fee. Other major expenses - babysitting the routes to mitigate human impacts and manage our behavior. There are other nice amenities that the fee supports which aren't of real value to climbers. For example, the visitor center in Talkeetna is 100% paid for by the climbers fee, yet 31,000 park visitors go there, only 1,200 of them are climbers. Thousands of peopel use Muir as a day hike, using the toilets. However, only climbers pay the special use fee to maintain those toilets. Concession revenue derived from climbing are not required to go to the program. Only 80% are retained by the Park of origin. These concession fees paid for the nice new roof at the National Park Inn at Rainier. In the case of both parks, the expenses related to the mountaineering program (excluding rescue but including services that other park visitors use) is a tiny fraction of the overall park budget. If every visitor paid $1 more, no fee inclreases would be needed to have the level of "services" - more correctly the level of supervision - that the Park wants to have for climbers. But that is a lot of potential complainers and a far more complicated process for raising the entrance fee.
When it comes to fighting the fees, find a test case and litigate that they are unconstitutional. You'll probably get some funding from some ready sources in help with the legal fees. However, you may lose.
NPS will shut down recreation when it feels that the resource will be affected and they can't manage it. They would rather keep us all confined to a strip of pavement.
The AF originally opposed all fees that singled out climbers. That battle was lost as the NPS budgets were cut and the USFS found holes in its budget from dramatic reductions in timber sales and rapidly escalating fire suppression costs. So the new battle is to keep those fees as low as possible. That is reality and where there is potential to make a difference. Can there be some minor victories here? - yes. The annual pass at Rainier was a direct result of local outcries against the rising fee and the relatively poor local economy. At the public meetings, an official responded to the locals' concerns about paying the fee many times a year and offered the annual option. This was adopted and was a good compromise.
I admire the passion and completely sympathize with the frustration of climbers being milked. I was totally outraged to hear the Denali Superintendent talking about Denali as a bargain among the seven summits. Deanli is an American National Park, not the playground for the rich seeking the glory of the 7 summits.
Pressure needs to be applied to curtail the fee mania sweeping the country. It is regressive taxation and will destroy the connection, and ul;timately the support, of the American people for their public lands. Like everything else, we continue to expand the amount of land that we want kept in governemnt hands, but we don't want to pay for its stewardship. So the put the trees in a tree museum, and charge the people $1.50 just to see them.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Doug's got passion, but man he can be tough to follow.
I think we need to get away from traditional economic models when it comes to emergency services, because it leads to coming up with the wrong answers, IMHO. First, if we as a society deem it desireable to have rescue services, then we have to establish them and pay for them, end of story. We have to completely divorce ourselves of the sentiments that so and so was a dumbazz, shouldn't have been there and why did we pay for the rescue, vs. wow that was a badazz team, weather just came in and I'm glad they were saved. Either we value our fellow humans and want to help them out, or we don't, there aren't those whoe deserve to be saved, and those who don't.
As to AK and taxes, we will (well at least I will) be happy to give up federal funding when you give us control of the land and the ability to develop it. If you want to lock up the state as a giant park, and prevent the people here from making a living, then you pay for it.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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Government is dependent upon an ignorant society. The comments of many government-supporting climbers demonstrate the ease of the government's job.
The answers to the questions, and the resolutions to the expressed contradictions, are within the information offered at http://AlaskanAlpineClub.org/ClimbingTaxes.html.
But ignorant people are ignorant because they do not take the time, or simply do not have the time, to learn the related knowledge. They are self-victimized, and make fools of themselves, by parroting the sound-byte cliches of government folks who have used those cliches to fool fools for centuries.
A demanded payment by government is a tax, in prevailing law. A fee is an attribute of a private transaction, to acquire a service or product that does not involve a RIGHT. A right cannot be lawfully taxed, cannot lawfully require the payment of a fee or any monetary value, and cannot lawfully require permission (permit, license, mandatory paperwork).
Certainly there are ignorant people who suggest that YOU have no RIGHT to walk on YOUR PUBLIC LAND.
The people who argue that climbers should be forced to pay for government rescues are the most magnificent of the ignorant fools. "There can be no liability to a compelled benefit." - prevailing law. The mountain climbers solved the rescue issue decades ago, as explained in the above mentioned web page, and still there are fools parroting the Park Service / news media lie about rescues. There will always be fools.
The tax paid Coast Guard rescues, which is the only Coast Guard mission in times of peace, of boaters who pay no fee for their each trip onto public waters, and the State police responses to highway accidents, shine a metaphorical trillion lumens on the fools who say those damn mountain climbers should pay a special fee for their rescues.
No problem. The Park Service has cooked its goose with its now noticeable tax on the RIGHT of the common people to walk on their own public land, during the "Arab Spring". The Access Fund and American Alpine Club environmentalists can rally around their Park Service "Sheriff of Nottingham" tax collector, and they only illuminate themselves with the Sheriff.
Now, if you knew that you were opposing the powerful Sheriff of Nottingham, and the war-funding king for whom he collects the taxes, and millions of unquestioning minion fools supporting those insatiably greedy swine, precisely, by line-item process, what would you peacefully and respectfully do?
Lacking money and power, the Alaskan Alpine Club members had to THINK. What is the most valuable process of humans, if not THINKING, while fools in government rely on their POWER, therein the void of thinking?
If you faced a difficult task, would you select for assistants, those with POWER, or those who can THINK? On what is the success of humans predicated, by design of the human mind? Your answer?
Enjoy the show.
And you can start suggesting that climbers who climb Denali and Rainier, starting next spring, are "Disgraces to the history of mountain climbing." Then laugh at the Park Service and establishment reaction. Word of mouth in the subculture defeated Mubarak and all his thugs. His reaction hastened his defeat.
Respectfully, Doug Buchanan, Alaskan Alpine Club delegate to UIAA
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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Yooo Roxjox....
If you just would have told me sooner I would not have had to spend this money on a certain poster suggesting something about the climbers who pay the Park Service tax to climb, if you can imagine that. Now what do I do? Do what I am supposed to do, or do what I started to do? The dilemmas of those who ask questions doom them to a life of hopelessly increasing knowledge in a world of soothingly decreasing knowledge. I could just stand still and do nothing, asking no questions, and I would still be intellectually advancing beyond the fine folks who still keep believing the same lies government was telling long before the Roman Empire.
I'll just pour another glass of Ladera 2007 Cabernet Sauvignon, Napa Valley, unlimber a JR Ultimate Number 1 Maduro cigar, set aside a certain advancement in biomimicry technology, ask the question of what I should do, then get back to a bit of rabble rousing, trouble causing, arm waving and general carrying on, not to save the pitiable sorts who have already been saved by government, but to enhance the comedy and laugh myself to tears yet again.
Or something in that general vicinity. Remember, John Waterman, Chuck Comstock and Andrew Embick were each awarded the Alaskan Alpine Club Otzi The Ice Man Award, the climbers who pay the tax to climb Denali and Rainier starting next year are officially "Disgraces to the History of Mountain Climbing", and you are a member of the Alaskan Alpine Club if you say you are. If fact, each membership comes with a free Nobel Peace Prize printed on the same kind of paper used for Obama's prize if you print it.
Climb on...
Doug Buchanan
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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What cannot be comprehended by the pitiable Park Service rangers and their minions, the Access Fund and American Alpine Club leaders, is that the conclusion is already certain.
There will be no taxes on the RIGHT of the common people to walk on THEIR OWN PUBLIC LAND.
Now we are only discussing the amount and extent of acrimony, and who will be left on record as supporting the DemocanRepublicrat War and Police Regime against the RIGHTS of the common Americans. Go ahead, try to sustain that tax on human rights. The Americans are gullible and dumb as a post, as demonstrated by the existence of the tax, but things ALWAYS CHANGE.
Left to the Park Service's pocket Access Fund and American Alpine Club leaders, who are on record as supporting said tax as part of their support for a "fully funded National Park Service", the insatiably greedy Park Service would inherently extend the tax to other outdoor recreation groups whose leaders could be "bought-off".
But in time, when the tax on the right of the common people to walk on their own public land inherently reached the wrong group, the group whose leaders will not betray their followers, BLAME would be prominent, and right from the get-go the BLAME would be on THOSE DAMN MOUNTAIN CLIMBERS WHO STARTED AND SUPPORTED THE TAX.
That progression of this ancient issue has been entrenched since government was invented.
Enjoy the show.
You might want to be able to show dated record of your being a mountain climber who was openly and strongly against the climbing tax, because if you fail, your children will be the ones using stronger means to regain their RIGHT TO WALK ON THEIR OWN PUBLIC LAND, and they just may find out or suspect which side you were on.
You can easily secure the wise position of defending the RIGHTS of "your own people", by EFFECTIVELY spreading the word (on any record) that the folks who climb Denali and Rainier, and pay the tax, starting in 2012, are a "Disgrace to the history of mountain climbing".
And you can laugh robustly at the reaction in the power-damaged minds of the insatiably greedy National Park Service "Sheriffs of Nottingham" whose psychological uncertainty around mountain climbers will increase, even if they read these words and know what the climbers are doing. Some of them are already uneasy about the public starting to understand the tax, and are not really on their boss's side.
DougBuchanan.com, the Alaskan Alpine Club paperwork guy.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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Imagine my amusement with a topic title, "For actual climbers only", which gets little attention on SuperTopo.
This supports my common conclusion that the actual climbers are climbing, quite wisely, but their little attention paid to the sorts who claim to organizationally represent them, is the reason they must pay climbing taxes, and be subject to arrest and harassment by National Park Service pigs supported by the Access Fund and American Alpine Club in back rooms.
No problem. While a few of us speak up for climber rights and freedom, the inherent trend of increasing government POWER over climbers will advance to its inescapable collapse. The accusing sisters in Salem kept accusing, inherent to their greed for more power, until they accused the wrong person, identical to the Park Service thugs.
The American Alpine Club and Access Fund will never escape their support for the climbing taxes, much to the amusement of those of us who illuminate their actions.
Respectfully, Doug Buchanan
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Always interesting to see where people on the dole put their energy...
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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Healyje.....
Trite, more accurately describes the concept. Government chaps therefore on the government dole always apply their maximum energy in defending and increasing the dole they get from the gullible taxpayers.
After a few thousand years of the same concept flawlessly at play, anyone still finding it interesting was born recently.
However, their antics do remain amusing.
It is beyond their comprehension to understand that the people do not want over 90 percent of what government does (shuffles meaningless paper), and the other 10 percent is done more cost-effectively by private enterprise. So when government chaps stand to lie about what they do, and sincerely think they can fool all of the people all of the time, the comedy is obvious.
And keep on having fun.
Doug Buchanan
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 26, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
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This is merely one consideration on a very narrowly-focused topic of self-responsiblity, and in no way reflects my general beliefs in charity and lovingkindness toward other living spirits. I am not on the dole, I am not a republican nor a libertarian nor a democrat. I am a simple potter. Thank you. (Ad hominem attacks are transparently ridiculous, anyway. Please attempt to think beyond them when entering a discussion. Or at least make a good joke. :) Be creative and funny!)
Insurance and Freedom to Roam
To re-assert our freedom in the mountains, have we considered approaching Lloyds of London to come up with a fee which will entitle us to a certificate of insurance to cover our efforts above some specific elevation, at some defined location, for some period of days or months, said certificate to absolve us from some contracted portion of any fees being paid in the cause of "rescue", said rescue to be mounted privately and pre-arranged, as an elemental part of our expedition preparation?
(Lloyds is quite capable of coming up with a formula to manage such risks and probably already does this type of insurance. I doubt any voluntary organization, properly constructed, would not find Lloyds amenable to such a proposal. I envision this as an entirely voluntary organization. It is one of the concepts Doug both proposed and initiated. I would be happy to discuss its expanded concept and formation when I finish my present clay commissions. I have had dealings with Lloyds of London for, hmmm. . . 50 years or so. I was not exactly a sedentary young girl. :) Then I had reason to deal with them later on other issues. I find them entirely agreeable people.)
Anyway, if we want to demonstrate our willingness to take care of our own Climber Tribe(s) in a fully ethical manner, then of course self-responsibility for our actions in climbing situations is a part of that recognition, just as it is in our common driving and hang-gliding situations.
Let us also consider the concept of "freedom to roam" for which I have provided a link to great deal of information. Freedom to Roam has long included Freedom to Climb. I think we must take personal responsibility in a reasonable way for our actions in this manner, or we will find the Nanny Camel's nose further into our tent. If we recognize the flaws inherent in the present system, then we must accept our own responsibility in this mish-mash, and offer a reasonable alternative to the present uncomfortable situation.
And this is only one idea.
What else might we consider as a means to alleviate the burden on our public servants, and get them back to tending to the well-being of our common lands and to the proper role of our employees, our Stewards, who care for our land and its creatures? How do we take responsibliity in such fashion that these servants may return to the proper care for our commonly-held lands?
Toss out a few paradigms here, if you will.
Thank you
feralfae
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