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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Feb 21, 2012 - 09:56am PT
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I agree. I switched to mostly fruits and vegies 2 years ago, and my T levels have skyrocketed (from 450 to 760), as shown in blood tests. I'm sure sleep, sun, hydration and workouts help too.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2012 - 10:59am PT
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monolith,
Interesting article, thanks.
Next time i get a blood draw I'll get the full monty so I know.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Feb 21, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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Just stopped taking it about a month ago and feel great. I also stopped taking cymbalta for pain. Cymbalta really jacks with tour T numbers.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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stopped taking it about a month ago and feel great.
how long were you on it? and in what form? why'd you stop? what were your blood levels?
if you don't mind disclosing
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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personally, i prefer to bath in the blood of my enemies and their extended families...keeps you young ;-)
sigh...in a different time i'd be raising my own personal army...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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You cannot evaluate testosterone level without considering SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin).
Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) is a protein that binds to both testosterone and estradiol. Its amount can vary widely in patients, and if the SHBG is either low or high, the amount of active (bioavailable) testosterone can vary widely.
Also, consider your (mostly discredited) PSA value. If you have a cancer tendency you don't want to feed it.
What's your TSH level?
Disclaimer: I haven't read the thread.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:10am PT
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Not directed at anyone personally, just musings:
Getting fueled by male hormones because you don't feel comfortable about getting "old" is classic denial.
Add to that your tipping the scales of male/female energy in your body, and you just may have the chemical cocktail you need to validate your destructive tendencies and/or profession.
Just sayin'
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Sep 20, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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In backpacker magazine, there is an ad for Mdrive. The website is
http://www.mdrivebp.com/
The maker claims it frees up the testosterone that your body produces and strengthens the adrenal glands with a combination of herbs. I have used it for over 40 days and it seems to be helping me finally build some muscle mass at age 58, maybe as much as four pounds.
I frequently exercise twice a day and I don't feel rundown from doing so as much as I used to. I plan to order another 60 day supply to see if the trend continues.
What level of exercise? Well, I jog a couple miles almost every morning. Monday I did sixteen all-out swimming sprints of 25 yards each, four of butterfly, four of breaststroke, four of back and four of free. I did not swim Tuesday, but Wednesday I swam an easy IM of these four strokes for a total of 1,000 yards.
I can swim 1,000 yards of butter-glide non-stop (did it last week) or 3,000 yards of free non-stop (did it the week before). I lift weights twice a week also an average of two hours per session. None of this is that great, except at age 58, most men my age I know couldn't do anything close to this. I do think that Mdrive is helping me a little do all this. That and being very careful about what I eat. I don't drink alcohol and I don't smoke weed. I think both of those substances sap motivation for one thing.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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A note of caution: An outstanding review of OTC nutritional supplements found that around 20% sold in the US contained Anabolic Steroids. It was much higher overseas. This was not disclosed in the packaging.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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Ken,
that's an interesting note you just posted regarding the OTC supplements. Doping them with anabolic steroids for effect, wow. Good to know - though I for one steer clear of those supp shops, just too much bs, hype.
So much corruption in the world, shame.
.....
Hey, I should say the TRT I take is intramuscular injection by prescription by known pharm (Sandoz or Pfizer).
My interest is whether or not I should shoot for an optimum point given my adventure sport lifestyle interest - of around 600 - 1000, say? Or back off and be happy - "settle" - with 350 -400 (low normal).
I'll frame it this way: If we were brothers (both serious rock cimbers, etc.) what would you counsel? Thanks again.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
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I'm taking vitamin "DO," best one out there.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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Per the request of HFCS:
Hey, would you share with us your view on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for older 50+ men - esp those who are (a) really into hard-driving adventure sports and keeping up performance as long as possible; while at the same time (b) not necessarily (my case at least) not really into pushing the personal longevity envelope as far as possible (for me 70-75 is plenty, anything over is just bonus; so there you go for context, lol).
my thoughts:
Hormone systems are VERY complex system, it turns out. There has been a tendency to look at them as being isolated, such as testosterone, thyroid, pituitary, etc.
This is far too simplistic. All of these systems are interrelated.
I subscribe to the concept of a proper balance of our systems. I think many diseases result from imbalances, some of which we create.
Clearly, there are changes that happen as we age. Some result in reduction in various types of performance, both mental and physical. I believe the evidence shows that some of this can be compensated for, by supplementation with the specific thing that is reduced.
HOWEVER, one has to be careful. As I said, these things are complex, and overdoing it can produce some very unhappy outcomes. For example, bone metabolism is affected by hormones, and excessive supplementation may have unexpected effects on the bones. Our thought process are also hormone mediated, and excessive dosages of testosterone are well known to produce a "high", which is very artificial and drug induced, and can be as problematic as other kinds of drug highs.
All of that being said, I am a man who is governed by evidence, and what I think the current evidence says is that restoring an out-of-balance system can (but may not) produce a better result than baseline. But I would be very concerned by what might happen over time with higher doses than needed for balancing. The sense of feeling better is probably an illusion, and will eventually cause problems in the other direction.
I can't say that I have much direct personal experience with people doing this sort of thing. The little that I have had was not good for the persons involved.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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^to recap then, just "DO IT"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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Ken, thanks for the reply.
The very concerns you expressed are mine, too, and it's why I thought I should get your input.
You're a great resource around here, thanks a lot.
.....
From the Life Extension Foundation link above:
The so-called “normal” levels of testosterone in older men reflect population averages. The Life Extension Foundation believes that most aging men would prefer not to accept the loss of youthful vigor as normal. Instead, we suggest that a more valid optimal level for all men would be in the upper one-third of the reference range used for men aged 21 to 49 years, and that any supplementation should aim to restore hormone levels to that range. The current Life Extension optimal level of free testosterone is 20-25pg/mL.
(1) The "loss of youthful vigor" - yes it's normal, yes it's natural; but is it desirable? is it to some degree preventable?
(2) What to note: Only the free testosterone (not the bound testosterone) is employed by the cells.
(3) What to note: This group suggests optimum level is 20-25 pg/ml free testosterone.
"When measuring testosterone levels, it is critical to determine the levels of both free and total testosterone to understand the cause of any observed symptoms of deficiency (from optimum)."
re: estrogen, estradiols
"Finally, during the initial testing, it is also imperative to test estrogen levels. Many of the unwanted effects of male hormone imbalance are actually caused by an elevated estrogen level relative to low testosterone levels (the estrogen/testosterone ratio). The Life Extension optimal level of estrogen (measured as estradiol) for aging men is 20-30pg/mL."
(4) Elevated estrogen (estrodiol) level can be a problem. So check next time if you can. It would be a nice baseline to have on record, too, for later aging profile.
One more:
A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) measured blood estradiol in 501 men with chronic heart failure. Compared to men in the balanced estrogen quintile, men in the highest quintile (serum estradiol levels of 37.40 pg/mL or greater) were significantly (133%) more likely to die. Those in the lowest estradiol quintile (serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL) had a 317% increased death rate compared to the balanced group. The men in the balanced quintile—with the fewest deaths—had serum estradiol levels between 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL (Ewa et al 2009). This is the ideal range that Life Extension has long recommended male members strive for.
An epidemic problem we at Life Extension observe in aging male members is insufficient free testosterone, i.e., less than 20 - 25 pg/mL of serum. When accompanied by excess estradiol (over 30 pg/mL of serum), this can signal excess aromatase enzyme activity.
http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_02.htm
If all of the above fail to increase free testosterone and lower excess estradiol, consider discussing with your physician the use of the aromatase inhibitor anastrozole (Arimidex) at the very low dose of 0.5 mg twice per week.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastrozole
Anastrozole has been tested for reducing estrogens, including estradiol, in men.[8] Excess estradiol in men can cause benign prostatic hyperplasia, gynecomastia, and symptoms of hypogonadism. It can also contribute to increased risk of stroke, heart attack, chronic inflammation, prostate enlargement and prostate cancer.[9] Some athletes and body builders will also use anastrozole as a part of their steroid cycle to reduce and prevent symptoms of excess estrogens; gynecomastia and water retention.[8] Study data suggests dosages of 0.5 mg to 1 mg a day reduce serum estradiol approx. 50% in men, which differs in postmenopausal women
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Sep 22, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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Keep your hands off it for a week, and, then, maybe (just maybe) it'll start growing back? Good luck!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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re: damned no matter what
It is as if Mother Nature is telling us... You are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't. Either way, I got you.
Testosterone by way of testicles might be the culprit - to a shorter life.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-men-without-testicles-live-longer-20120924,0,5296425.story
Korean eunuchs live 14-19 years longer their testicular counterparts.
.....
Then again, who wants to live forever.
.....
NOTES
1) Standard testosterone range has been changed yet again - at least at the lab my doc uses. Now it's 250 - 1100 ng/dl for total testostone (I'm checking in at 681) and 35 - 155 pg/ml for free testosterone (I'm 123.5). The method used is "LC-MS-MS."
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Sep 25, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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Hey Syrup... seriously ..had some of the same issues....one Doc suggested I go to a endocrinologist....I was not even sure why...long story short...had a tumor on my pituitary gland found with a MRI. No worries though....mine was bengin and the size can be controlled by taking a half of a pill twice a week. Everything started to return to normal..at least as normal can be for me.
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