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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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GNEISS ONE!
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WBraun
climber
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So I went outside and got a rock and smashed it with the sledge hammer, I didn't hear any screams for mercy from that rock.
Are you sure the rock suffers?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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what makes you think they'd scream? Does lettuce scream when you cut it up? it suffers all the same!
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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i'm suffering just reading this
if you want the lettuce to suffer, you need to sledgehammer it before it's been harvested. dead lettuce no longer suffers, everyone knows that.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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next thing you know we'll be talking about DRILLED POCKETS in LETTUCE! (which I'm against)
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WBraun
climber
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Hahahaha, yes pretty funny
But!
In India, Jagdish Chandra Bose first claimed to find evidence of consciousness in plants. Bose's work was falsified and rejected by mainstream biology in his own life-time.
It is still touted as India's contribution to world.
I have not ever heard this about rocks ..... having consciousness.
Anyways, onward to "drilled pockets". Do you think Mr. Piton will be angry with us for bringing these points up?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
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Not as long as you keep addressing me as MISTER Piton. Hehe.
Just back from the crimson gash and it was pretty hot today. After falling into a cactus I whacked it a few times but it kept quiet.
Making some cavatappi. I'll give it a go after dindin.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 11:43pm PT
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As I have stated before the Zion boulder was someone else's doing. I know who, but am sworn to secrecy. I hate rats. You should see what I let my monitor lizard do to them (I have video).
This person showed remarkable talent not only in climbing but motorcycling and some rodeo sports, but never pursued any seriously. I predicted to him even then that I'd get blamed, just like all the chicken bolts added to routes I put up. He is now fat with a serious substance abuse problem and probably hasn't touched rock the entire millenium.
But I owe him and he knows where the bodies are buried.
Besides, who am I explaining chiseling to?
A friend of Sheriff Lobo, someone who chisels herb?
I know that much is true, but as for these reports of spraying mace in the face of a guy in a wheelchair, these are just rumors. Still if true the lack of compassion, the lack of humanity is appalling. I've always found that when it comes to people confined in wheelchairs its easy to sneak up on them and club them over the head so that they don't feel anything.
Anyway Bob, you WERE putting words in my mouth. I never said drilling holds would have less impact than not drilling. Still you got close to an essential element of my rationale.
There are TWO creative aspects to climbing; performance and product.
Most climbers are performance oriented and the route is just an incidental medium. They make their statement by HOW they climb and the remains are secondary. For me the route IS the statement so where the drilled angles are and what alterations I make is the priority.
I'm not going to go into my Zion drilled pockets, Climb Against Nature, but rather wish to focus on a handful of routes in Snow Canyon State Park as well as discuss the variety of physical impacts climbers perpetrate.
You see I do think that the great threat of land managers closing the resources to climbers is NOT because of any kind of drilling or other chiseling. Its the far more mundane actions of ankle biting, drag buffing, anchor cleaning, leaving debris on walls, and impacting approaches that will (and indeed already DO) threaten to render rock climbing a quaint forbidden anachronism.
(time out for wine, I'll be back...)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Ah yes. Much better.
Now where was I?
Oh yes......
There I was on the near vertical expanse, belaying myself to a tied off angle in a dusty hole and having to feed out enough slack to bust a move off the shifting hook I was hanging on as it slowly ground its way down on the crumbing sandstone flake it was perched upon.
Totally gripular!
Except today that same pitch is considered 5.8- and is the most popular in the park.
Comfortizing doesn't even begin to describe the astounding metamorphisis that led to the creation that, with apologies to George Bernard Shaw, was apropriately named Pygmy Alien.
So much rock was trimmed that the Chief Ranger Dave Emory voiced concern but I assured him that one good rain would wash off the dust and so it was.
In many cases the trimming served a conservative function since if climbers had tried to use flake edges it would have levered off larger chunks often with critically useful edges to boot.
Much more material was removed from that pitch than from all three drilled pocket routes 100m to the right, but NOBODY ever complained. It was the three pocketed routes that created the tempest in the teapot while Pygmy Alien became the milk run.
time out
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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Ok, so, we've got the straw man of nailing=chiseling, and the distraction of the Pygmy that needed trundling, but I'm not hearing much about Why Drilled Pockets Are Cool from ya.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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This was in the eighties and ground up vs rap was still a flashpoint. When I tried to put up a more difficult route just right of PA I ended up essentially putting in a bolt ladder until I resorted to rap bolting, which served as a de facto conservation measure on what became Roar of the Greasepaint.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
I started rap bolting what became the War Zone.
This area centers on the line of Black Massacre. Three pitches with the upper two and a half being almost all superb 5.9 face. By now I had a Bosch and had seen drilled pockets.
The start of the route if freeable (rumored but never done without manufactured holds in my presence) would have been an extended boulder problem many grades harder and likely the upper pitches would have been ignored though highly deserving of appreciation.
If there was a natural route then it was "intelligently designed" for ankle biting.
To access the upper bitchin free stuff I could have made a bolt ladder of perhaps 6 bolts but in light of the analogy I feel between aid bolts and fingers in pockets I opted for roughly the same number of the latter.
Not a whimsical call actually.
I applied myself to doing a truly artful job replete with tiny drain holes so that they wouldn't accumulate sand. I masked the holes and sprayed the interiors with flat black paint that matched the varnish so well that, before they were chalked, they were almost invisible.
Besides the pockets I also sculpted so that, although still harder than the rock above, the start acted as a screen at about 10d/.11a for short guys requiring sequential dynos.
Well the crap hit the fan.
Some claimed that I had "chipped" a natural free line but every time somebody attempted to demonstrate they used a sculpted hold. Once a guy even put his fingers at the mouth of one of the drilled pockets and when I objected he said that he "knew" there had been "something" there.
Now I'm NOT saying that it wouldn't go but that was a lame pretense! I have some video of George Bracksieck claiming that it looked doable only to fail repeatedly. If there was a natural line it was so hard that the climbing above would have inevitably been ignored.
Then came the vigilantes.
Nature was right. The rock suffers.
Or at least the beauty did.
signing off tonight, be back later this week
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:54am PT
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"There are TWO creative aspects to climbing; performance and product. Most climbers are performance oriented and the route is just an incidental medium. They make their statement by HOW they climb and the remains are secondary. For me the route IS the statement ... "
Hmmm, leaving aside the consequences of aid/nailing, from what I can tell we're talking about a) the quality of routes and b) what is required to establish them; and that conversation is somewhat complicated by the fact that Ron historically is found hanging out under a lot of comparatively dubious and fragile rocks. I believe the quote from Ron above gets at the heart of "a" and drives the methods employed in "b".
A clear part of the evolution of sport climbing in the 80's was to make explicit what had always been in the background and clearly spoken to by Harding in Downward Bound - an implicit human tendency to focus on the climbers as opposed to the climbs. It was always there, but sport climbing brought it out of the closet and pretty quickly led to comps once gyms were established to provide a venue for them. The late 80's represented an inital [glamrock] "coming out" party that magazines and the advent of "rock" videos turned into a veritable Lycra Debutantes Ball. One of the consequences of the move from LNT/trad to sport climbing was that climbers became even more tightly associated and identifiable with the routes they established. LNT to some extent gave way to LMS (Left My Signature) even if that signature was carved in the press, in guidebooks, or by reputation.
So what the hell was any self-respecting and testostrone-laden "trad", let alone aid, climber supposed to do in such morally challenging and ambiguous times? Adapt or die, baby! Or at the least suffer the possibility of languishing in an unacknowledged backwater of collective disinterest and irrevalence. Well "hell no and f#ck that" was a common response and folks simply did what must be done. And if routes were going to be representative of specific climbers and a "product", then it wasn't entirely unreasonable for climbers to start putting a little thought into their "brand" and even copyrighting unique, identifiable "trademarks" like drilled angles. The upshot of the times was the evolution of the concept of establishing routes as a "portfolio" or "legacy" [to the public] activity. This in turn begged the necessary concept of "community service" to whatever degree was required to insure the climbing public could actual get on and up one's legacy. And to be fair, all rock - but especially fragile rock - required a degree of thought, craft, and maintenance in light of the increased traffic being generated as gyms gained traction in suburban pop culture.
So for me the question is this: did it all get a bit out of hand at times? Sure it did. Hell, I once even tried to epoxy a 25lb crux block back on a roof lip when it came off on the first go after my FA. I was gonna be damned if "my legacy" and accomplishment was going to sink into the leaves of oblivion so soon after my FA (like twenty minutes afterwards). So, yeah drilled holes, chipping, sculpting, glueing, comfortizing, and even bolt-ons have variously been rationalized on the altar of a "quality product". When one decides a potential route just has a few minor accessibility problems, but would otherwise be a "high quality" addition to one's brand, portfolio, or community (depending on one's bent and outlook), well then, maybe some liberties are warranted. At least that is the thinking one confronts when you have both the eye and talent for such things. The dilemma comes in the execution and the degree of alteration required. Some eschew the dilemna altogether passing such climbs by; others take measures from subtle to bombastic to insure a route happens.
But we're all just human - even Ron - and as some of us get older, and take stock of our "legacy" with a more retrospective eye, most tend to develop an awareness and priority around preserving the precious commondity we metaphoriaclly, and occasionally physically, chiseled our legacy out of. And even a semi-unwitting "date rapist" can come to realize the impact of their behavior and thereafter be all the more prone to [harshly] call others on it. They understand it isn't in anyone's best interest no matter how good it seemed to feel at the time. While I don't engage in or condone such things, I'm not inclined to call Ron names, even for the glass house aspect of all this, not only because I can tell he's wiser now and his intentions are good, but also becase he owns so many big guns and I still want to visit the area. And, who knows, maybe I'll even see if I can talk him into giving me a tour of a drilled angle or two. I personally think they were a damn clever response to sizing up an ugly situation and taking stock of what one had at hand to deal with it.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
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Ron, I applaud you for getting at the truth. What punched my button is that in the other thread you were so willing to call thom a rock rapist for saying that he was willing to pound a pin on a "clean route". Take the shield for example. It went clean what about 15 years ago or so? Does this imply that every other ascent since then that was not clean was done by rock rapists? I dont think so. I have not done that route; however, I do not think that every person who pounded a pin or rurp on that route since its clean ascent is a rock rapist.
I also do not agree or condone of your actions of drilling pockets in order to generate a nice three pitch route. Not every wall must be climbed.
I refrained from calling anyone names. I personally climbed a few of Ron's routes 20 years ago and enjoyed them quite a bit. He has put up many fine routes on the walls of Zion that many aspiring big wall climbers have learned on (myself included). I did not choose to climb black massacre because I found the pockets to be disgusting. I also believe that the addition and approval of routes such as this are an unacceptable direction of climbing, that is just my opinion. Thankfully, it is a rare occurrence and did not propagate itself possibly due to the disapproval of other climbers.
As healyje said, we each choose to deal with this issue in our own independant way. But when a route is forced by drilling pockets, it does rob future climbers out of challenges that they may have had.
PR said to thom,
"Too MUCH danger?
Do another route where you see less."
I would humbly suggest by paraphrasing,
too difficult? Dont drill pockets, leave it for someone who has the skill and climb something within your abilities...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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"The Secret Life of Rocks."
Hahahahaha, I like that ......
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:25pm PT
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Piton Ron (no more mister for you) ...
Thanks for clearing the air on the ZNP boulder. I had heard it was you since before time. Sometimes such rumors are unfounded. Hope the question doesn't come your way again too often.
Now, doesn't it feel better to get everything out there! Sighhhh... ;)
Signed,
burp (a nobody who has viewed many a drilled pocket and wasn't sure whether I wanted to allow myself to pull on it or not)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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So the deal here is that lines of drilled holds facillitating 'free' sections is an alternate to bolt ladders?
Is that it?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Jaybro
You know I've actually thought of this also as a fantasty, but I didnt want or ever think about drilling pockets/holds instead of a bolt ladder.
I wanted to put bolt on holds instead of a bolt ladder to connect a blank unfree climbable section.
I never did it because I figured world war III would start. Bridwell floated the idea in a conversation once also.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:08pm PT
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Jardine talked about that, too.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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I intend to return to the story where time permits but at this point wanted to mention that Bridwell had seriously attempted to talk me into partnering him in putting up a .10c bolt-on-holds route up the right side of El Cap and claimed (probably correctly) that it would become the most popular route on the rock.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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(Oh and Jaybro, you're still looking at it backwards. A bolt ladder IS nothing more than prosthetic free climbing up drilled pockets to begin with. Its the same hubris only by mechanical proxy.)
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