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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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Watch the use of ALL-CAPS, there. I hear that people don't like it! :)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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I don't see the problem with saying that a person's physical characteristics are important to determining if they can or can't do a certain climb.
The third FA of the Nose was a long time in coming, wasn't it?
I heard Little Lynnie is just that, rather petite. And that particular physical characteristic was a key (the key?) to freeing the roof pitch. A taller person would not be able to undercling the thing, or whatever.
And I seem to remember that Birdwell wrote that he specifically wanted Largo to lead the first section of the FANID because his meaty hooks fit right into the Stovelegs.
And Layton Kor is tall, and the bolt ladder at the roof on the South Face of the Column is notoriously reachy, and perhaps impossible for the stature-challenged.
And for that matter, what if some spindly couch potato (like me) goes up onto the Nutcracker and can't pull the mantel near the top? Does that mean the route is no good?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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So a cheater stick is a good example of ingenuity? Please keep reply limited to one paragraph... I'm on dialup
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:33pm PT
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Cheater sticks for aid are great. The whole aid game is cheating, in a sense.
There was a fifteen foot move (reaching up with a hook to a small edge, no less) on Scorched Earth that otherwise would have required a half dozen rivets.
Throwing a rope around a horn is also very nice. I did that on Son of Heart and saved having to pound a few pitons.
EDIT: Ingenuity on WOS might entail using multiple hooks and equalizing them.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:34pm PT
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Madbolter said: "One might as well just lean a giant wooden ladder against the rock, because one is not really climbing the rock at all."
When I was in Borneo there was a bamboo ladder that the natives made and it was hundreds of feet high up a wall. Scariest looking thing you ever saw when you envision climbing that ladder with no pro and rope. Scarier than free soloing. Those natives bare feet and no rope or pro, climb that ladder. Yikes!
And you said: "Such "climbing" seems more like "hiking."
Man, I want to see you do that ladder ......... and see you say that line above again.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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Here is what I see...
-13 pitches... topo shows most rivets/bolts on first 9 pitches except the 13th traverse.
-First 9 look to be like 1000 feet or under???
-Probably at least 120 holes in first 9???
-1000 divided by 120=8.3 feet per hole
Now I can drill a hole on a slab pretty far apart... at least 6 feet. So... umm... how many natural placements in first 9 would you say?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:42pm PT
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The answer is simple. I quote the book: "We used 151 hooks to ascend the route. All but five were Leeper narrows. We placed 205 copperheads, most of which were #0, #1, and #2."
Gotta be careful with those averages. Every time we placed two rivets in a row, that adds another natural placement between rivets somewhere else. Yup, there are some rivet ladders. That means there are some long sections of hooking.
Keep in mind also that the hole count includes anchor bolts, the count of which is.... 27 or 28. Also, our pitches were long. We figured right at 1,200 feet of climbing up the slab.
Anyway, if the hole count is being used to suggest a rivet ladder yet again, welll... see the last several hundred posts on these three threads.
Regarding the wooden ladder... point well taken. I was imagining something a bit more, well, substantial. :)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:45pm PT
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When I was in Borneo there was a bamboo ladder that the natives made and it was hundreds of feet high up a wall. Scariest looking thing you ever saw when you envision climbing that ladder with no pro and rope. Scarier than free soloing. Those natives bare feet and no rope or pro, climb that ladder. Yikes!
Some cowboy-type did the FA of the Devil's Tower with a ladder made from long wooden pitons/stakes/rungs joined by a vertical rail tied with rope or cord. It was quite the local trade route in its day.
Gotta be careful with those averages.
Exactly. What about subtracting 30-40 right off the bat for the belays?
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:47pm PT
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The damn thing is a contrived piece of swiss cheese. If homeboys are proud of spending an eternity on THE single most contrived POS on the Capt, bully for them. All this wanking is just that. I'm sure there are some difficult and scary hook moves on it, but :
1. It ain't a line, it's a variation.
2. It's absurdly contrived.
3. It was put up at a time when much more natural, compelling lines had yet be done.
4. All the book writing self congratulatory BS for spending half the summer up there is a joke.
Bottom line: I ain't impressed, and will always think it was a bullsh*t, ill advised clownshow by two cats who had the ability to do something great, but squandered it on a steaming pile of dung.
Carry on.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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OMG!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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Wow! So am I getting this right? Ladders are valuable now too in climbing??? Excellent! Ok, we admit it, now that we can! WoS was all a grand lie! It IS a rivet ladder! So now there's nothing to argue about!!! It IS repeatable, and it IS valid and valuable after all!!! I'm SO excited!
Not
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:50pm PT
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So Azzz... tell us how you really feel?
{{{{ducking for cover}}}
Ammon: hahahahahaha!!!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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Ladders are valuable now too in climbing
Yes. An aid pitch is a ladder comprising pins, heads, hooks, cams, stoppers and anything else you can get to stick 8-)
My point about the Devil's Tower was just a historical note.
I guess I should mention the steel ladder bolted to the wall near the Royal Arches.
(allow reader to catch breath and recover senses . . . . )
It's in the canyon between the RA and Yosemite Point. Or at least it was there 20 years ago. Maybe someone took it down. As I remember, it was moderate fifth class to bypass it.
Ammon: I stole your cartoon and put it in my computer. Ha-ha.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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That ladder you're talking about Tom was put in by the utility people to access the telephone cable going up Indian Canyon.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
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Tom, I entirely agree about what aid climbing is. I wasn't blasting your ladder story. My point from earlier, which I hope correlates with what you said, is that this is all really a pretty contrived game.
I guess the rules of the game do matter to me, though, as I perceive them, since I've been willing to risk life and limb to abide by them.
Something about the "game" is very important internally, like I'm a different person if I drill just as "courage in a rucksack," as opposed to the person I am if I conjure up some genuine courage to make the gutsy move. Hence, back to the idea that there's something about risk that makes climbing what it is.
LOVED the pic! (Oops, sorry about the all-caps... just couldn't help myself.)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:42pm PT
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1. It ain't a line, it's a variation.
As are somewhere around 2/3 of the existing "routes" on El Cap. Mike Corbett can put up a five pitch variation to a variation and call it a "route," while at least WoS does take the ONE apparent line of weakness up what was then the last great unclimbed expanse on El Cap. And, keep in mind that we were the third team to attempt the slab, so, regardless of what you call it, the route was going to get done.
2. It's absurdly contrived.
You mean, it doesn't follow a crack system that any mindless idiot could follow? Uhhh... we'll have to talk more about how in-your-face-obvious a line has to be before it survives this sort of scathing attack. I remember the Bird touting one of the great things about the P.O. wall was how "subtle" it was, in that there's nothing to, as he put it, "hide your ass in." It seems to me that putting inobvious features together can be something other than "contrived," although then the hole-count problem surfaces. But that's been "beaten to death" on these threads.
3. It was put up at a time when much more natural, compelling lines had yet be done.
You mean like Native Son, with it's fab "Machine Headwall" (and much assorted other drilling)? I don't remember the FA team on that one catching any flak. Again, this is purely a matter of opinion on your part, and you seem to be suggesting that NO route should EVER have been done on that slab. Or maybe just a route with a lot less drilling, however much that would be.... Again, beaten to death. Also, see answer to point 1.
4. All the book writing self congratulatory BS for spending half the summer up there is a joke.
I think we covered the "self congratulatory" aspect of the book a thread or two ago, so this is a pretty retro post in that regard. We were, and are, in a damned if we do and damned if we don't position regarding all of our responses.
But thank you for sharing.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:43pm PT
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Hey Mad Bolter,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I just ordered your book, incidentally, and look forward to reading it on the wall in a few weeks. My questions below [in no particular order] come with the caveat that I have not re-read the original l-o-n-g two threads, which I will when I have time, but here are my questions for now:
1. Are you Richard Jensen or Mark Smith?
2. You say Slater made it to 5. Why did he bail? What did he think of the first five pitches?
3. You say the bogus start is easier, and the original was chopped. In the Reid book, am I correct in assuming the original start is the one on the right? After the original start was chopped, did you guys replace it? Is it climbable now, or would we have to climb the bogus start?
4. You say that there were only a "FEW" enhanced hook placements on flakes that you haven't included in your hole count, and that it might be hard to tell which is which. Can you give me a number of your "slight enhancements" please? In other words, what number [more or less] is "FEW"?
5. The Reid Topo calls for only 40 heads, yet you say you used 205 heads. I ain't gonna re-use my heads 4 times! How many heads would I really need?
6. I like Jake's arithmetic - it makes me feel better. 151 hook placements and 165 holes including anchors sounds do-able. Yeah, I get that there will be multiple hook moves in a row because there are rivet ladders. Are there any long hook runouts? Just curious. I've done a several ten-hook-moves-in-a-row runouts and lived to tell the tale. In all cases I was soloing, and prusiked down hooks for pro. [wiping sweaty hands on pants]
7. What's a Leeper narrows hook? What is today's equivalent? Talon? Pointed Cliffhanger?
8. Why did you guys take 39 days to climb the route? That seems excessive, and if a guy like me is saying it..... Where were you slowest, and why? Once you reached Aquarian, how long did it take to finish?
9. Where's the spicy stuff? Is it easier after 7?
10. Why does the Reid topo talk about bathooks on the P13 traverse, yet there are no bathooks mentioned anyplace else. Are those the only true bathook holes then, or are there other bathook holes below? Why didn't you stick rivets in them?
For the record, I would consider any enhancement of a flake whatsoever to be a "hole", which is why I want to know what "FEW" means. This is not to diss you or to render any verdict on the "value" of the route, it's just that I want to know.
To me, the value will be whether I think it's cool or not, and did I have fun. And so far, every route I've climbed on El Cap has been cool, and I have mostly had fun, though there have been a few times.....
If I end up repeating this thing, I can tell you one thing, mate - I ain't goin' on a diet to do it! And I'm not that skinny any more, Russ - I'm a middle-aged lard-assed over-the-hill off-the-couch life insurance agent who climbs walls on his holidays.
Most likely I will have more questions after I read the other threads. And Ammon's horse looks more like a dead kangaroo or maybe a llama? When I was in engineering in university, dead horses always had their legs straight up in the air.
Cheers,
"PTL and PTP Pete"
And dude! For cryin' out loud, quit being so doggon defensive all the time, trying to do something that has already been done for you! [Rom 5:1 and 8:30 and especially 8:1]
Sheesh.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
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Ok... bets...
-Pete even starting the route
-Pete bails
-Pete sends
-Pete jacks off on his own ropes
we shall see.
I don't see how this route is any worse than all the stuff Harding drilled. Holes are holes no matter who drills them.
According to Reid guide... Heading to Oblivion has 140 holes. That route is said to be hard and has less feet of climbing that WOS.
Richard... any pictures from Ring of Fire?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:59pm PT
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No point in placing any bets on whether I will climb it or not, at least not yet since I haven't decided. I'll admit I am quite interested, however. I would need a couple partners who felt the same.
However, if at some point I publically [sic] announce I'll try it, I'd love everyone to bet, because it would be highly motivational! It's much harder to bail if you know the whole wall climbing world is watching you. This has been an effective strategy for me [and some others] in the past.
However I will bet I won't see you on El Cap anywhere this season, Jake.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 27, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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Well... I ain't going to where I was going... so I'm sure I will end up on something in yosemite this summer. Run from work cry on loose flakes.
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