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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Apr 19, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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Most people with an emotional development beyond the 14yr old stage reject her "philosophy" out of hand, and calling it "philosophy" is really straining the term.
because the emotionally stunted nutjob did LOVE to type if the length of these bricks masquerading as novels is any indication.
+1 Elcapinyoazz-couldn't have said it better!!!!!!
Her infantile ramblings are filled with lack of depth, or intellect. I've read the Fountainhead to see what the fascination was a while back, and was horrified by the writing level-really ridiculous! I have no respect for her shallow ideas and long winded rants of no substance. Her portrayal of the female character-needy, weak, non-contributing parasite that just focused on the exterior, made me ill.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 19, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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I tried to read AS but found it tedious drivel and gave up about 2/3 of the way through (that speech is what, 60 pages?!) Just couldn't see wasting any more time on it.
The above linked GQ article points out another way that objectivism appeals to some beyond justifying selfishness. It appeals to those who feel like they are deserving of greatness, but have never achieved it. See, it wasn't that perhaps they weren't that smart, or lucky or hard-working, it was the mediocrity of the masses that kept them down. In their mind, if only they were free of the "socialism" and catering to the least common denominator (damn those cripples and retards!) they could achieve their rightful destiny!
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Apr 19, 2011 - 02:15pm PT
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"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." --John Rogers
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:21am PT
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If only Ayn had had day to day dealings with real architects,(The Fountainhead) she may have chosen an engineer as her stalwart...
LOL!!
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Apr 20, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Tried "Atlas Shrugged" -- I found it (what I managed before quitting) very difficult to follow, finally gave up....
Years later read a very interesting take on Ms Rand....a Michael Shermer book called "Why People Believe Weird Things"....objectivism as a cult of personality....
If Shermer's research is valid, her hypocrisy & selfishness are / were disgusting to behold....
I guess I just don't like anyone telling me what's best for me.....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 20, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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Jolly, we can describe the construction of a building sorta like this:
An architect comes up with a "big vision" design. So what if little things like dimensions don't add up?
The engineer takes this "design", tries to make it work and turns it into construction plans. So what if the plans call for water to run up hill?
The surveyor takes these "plans", corrects all the busts and then stakes the plan in the ground. If that column gets staked 5 feet the wrong way, oops!
The framer, probably a high school drop out working out of the Labor Union Hall, comes along and takes this huge mess and actually builds something.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Apr 20, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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Reading over this thread there are all kinds of inaccurate statements about Ayn Rands philosophy and lots of lazy people who just want to hate. To understand her philosophy you must start at the beginning and understand the need for a philosophy in the first place. Then start with understanding her view of reality:
"Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears."
Then consider her take on how we gain knowledge and learn about reality:
"Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival."
Her ethics:
"Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life."
This is her basic philosophy in her words, consider the basics and judge accordingly. Ask yourself if you would like to be forced to support ideas and people of which you do not approve? Do you want to live in a world where your life and actions may be subverted for the achievement of some greater good with which you disagree? Ayn Rand's philosophy is about freedom and personal responsibility. I think many people hate it because they believe that achieving their version of the good is more important than the rights of those who disagree with them. They would rather use force than to have to convince and freely persuade the people whose support they need. Now back to your rants...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 20, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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In other words, it's dog eat dog?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Apr 20, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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I remember Hans Flourine being influenced by Rand in regards to competitive climbing. Climbing - as a SPORT - is competitiive. It's not fun....it's not you against yourself or the mountain....it's head to head battle for respect amongst your peers. Win or lose being forthright in your intentions is to be respected. The byproduct was a higher climbing standard!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 20, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
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Of COURSE matty, of course. It's that we "haters" are just not able to understand it you see...being lazy and ignorant and all.
The good ol "you are incapable of understanding" argument, a close cousin of the "No true Scotsman" argument.
Again, calling this woman's narcissistic ravings a "philosophy" is comical, if not sad. And what is sadder is that you take time to enlighten us lazy ignoramouses in a point by point manner, never seeming to realize that your culiminating quote is ridiculous on its face unless you happen to be a clinical sociopath.
Keep f*#kin that chicken.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
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Very advanced thinking Fattrad....greed is good for a select few and an unstainable masturbation ritual ending in disappointment for the greedy...Keep wainkin...Rj
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
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post your high school diploma, Fatty
Something you can really be proud of
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Apr 21, 2011 - 10:34am PT
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Of COURSE matty, of course. It's that we "haters" are just not able to understand it you see...being lazy and ignorant and all.
The good ol "you are incapable of understanding" argument, a close cousin of the "No true Scotsman" argument.
Where did I say you were incapable of understanding? I only said that to understand her you should start at the most basic points of the philosophy and not take a bunch of out of context quotes from the internet. I might be using the quotes out of context too, but unless you go to the source you'll never know.
Again, calling this woman's narcissistic ravings a "philosophy" is comical, if not sad. And what is sadder is that you take time to enlighten us lazy ignoramouses in a point by point manner, never seeming to realize that your culiminating quote is ridiculous on its face unless you happen to be a clinical sociopath.
It may not be a philosophy you like but it's still a philosophy. At least I'm taking the time to actually discuss ideas and not resort to name calling. If you think that final quote is ridiculous why not tell me why? Lastly I'm not calling everyone here lazy and ignorant or a hater. I only said there are a lot of people here who like to hate on Rand without ever having read much of her. I don't agree with all of her philosophy and I think there are ways that it could be presented better, but I agree with the basics.
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Tready
Trad climber
Syria
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Apr 21, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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I read The Fountainhead at the urging of a couple of my architect/engineer friends and once the dust settled, I emerged with a few insights.
1) The book sucked as a piece of literature. You can tell Roark is going to eventually succeed from the moment you meet him, and that Keating will eventually have a messy downfall - too cliched. That was the biggest problem I had with it, I guess.
2) Donegin (don't remember how exactly to spell his name) is bad ass.
3) There's a part in there about the creator being superior to the critic, regardless of the media, and that's pretty cool.
4) I didn't see much in there about philosophy other than the commie bashing and the pro-self stuff. Does that really count as a philosophy?
5) I won't ever solicit book suggestions from engineers or architects again.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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see link for the complete story - http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/feb/05/bill-requires-all-idaho-kids-read-atlas-shrugged/
February 5, 2013 in Idaho
Bill requires all Idaho kids to read ‘Atlas Shrugged
BOISE – Coeur d’Alene Sen. John Goedde, chairman of the Idaho Senate’s Education Committee, introduced legislation Tuesday to require every Idaho high school student to read Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged” and pass a test on it to graduate from high school.
When Sen. Bob Nonini, R-Coeur d’Alene, asked Goedde why he chose that particular book, Goedde said to laughter, “That book made my son a Republican.”
Goedde said he doesn’t plan to press forward with the bill, but it was formally introduced in his committee Tuesday on a voice vote. He said he was sending a message to the State Board of Education, because he’s unhappy with its recent move to repeal a rule requiring two online courses to graduate from high school, and with its decision to back off on another planned rule regarding principal evaluations.
“It was a shot over their bow just to let them know that there’s another way to adopt high school graduation requirements,” Goedde said after the meeting. “I don’t intend to schedule a hearing on it.”
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nutjob
Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
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I guess it all depends on how you approach new ideas. Do you:
A) Blindly and automatically accept it as gospel?
B) Blindly and automatically rebel against accepting it as gospel?
C) Ponder the material, stimulate your own formation of ideas, and engage others in an exchange of ideas that otherwise might not have happened?
For me, Atlas Shrugged was an invitation to ponder the relationship between myself and society, what kind of a world I want to live in, what kinds of rights I want to have, and what my responsibilities should be. My attitudes evolved as I discussed it with other people. The novel form was more successful in achieving this outcome than a dry list of philosophical questions would have been to me in high school.
I think I am a better person for having read the book, and I think it would be useful for society if more people read it and debated the points made in it (and no, the main point is not "why should my hard work go to pay taxes to support lazy dumb people who don't get a job"). That said, I can't conceive of how this idealistic fantasy of improving our society through mandatory reading and debating of Ayn Rand would be carried out cleanly; rather it would be twisted and colored and used as a tool for nefarious political purposes.
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