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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 20, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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Ping Dingus McGee.That's what I, would do.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jul 20, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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buy AMERICAN
Buy METOLIUS!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Jul 20, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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i like metolius' idea of powder coating hangers.
Actually Ed, Jim Titt has noted in other threads (MP and RC.com) that powerder coating can accelerate corrosion in certain instances.
Jim Titt posted over there:
Crevice corrosion and it´s related problem of pitting are common in coated stainless steel products and really anyone using this sort of coated hanger is asking for trouble. In order to get good adhesion of the coating it is nescessary to destroy the oxide coating with some kind of etch primer, thus removing the stainless steel´s protective barrier. Once the coating is damaged the crevice corrosion can begin.
Once the powder coating is damaged water can get underneath it and will be trapped, excluding the oxygen which forms the protective layer on the stainless steel. Crevice corrosion is then inevitable."
then there's this from Metolius:
Metolius RAP hangers are 1018 mild steel which will corrode quickly in a marine or wet environment. We recommend their usage only in drier climates. Once the powder coating is breached - which can be done when tightening the bolt, from the wrench if your not careful, or the backside when the hanger gets tightened into the rock - the degradation will begin. Once the powder coating is breached, it does actually work against you by trapping moisture and accelerate the decay process.
Whatever hanger and fastener combo are used, they need to be of the same material to prevent the galvanic process from occuring! Additionally, the Metolius powder coated stainless steel hangers (Enviro Hangers), shouldn't be used in marine or wet environments due to the same moisture trapping issues
I'm not aware of a "bad" hanger out there right now. Petzl, MadRock, Fixe, Metolius, Climb Tech, Climb Axe all have a solid product from what I can tell. Certain ones can be better for things like overhangs vs anchors but none appear to be unsafe.
The "BEST" bolt out there? A SS "Bühler Style" Glue-In, preferably in 316SS
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 07:46am PT
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Kid,
can you read labels? Or do you think that the point of manufacturing has no place in the meaning of "Buy America"?
My gripe is that Metolius pays chicken feed for these Chinese made toys and then rips us off with big profit margins.
Yes, our retailers and distributors are doing well.
It seems if you want to "Buy America" get some of those Texas made Climb Tech. hangers
On second thought,"Are these Climb Tech hangers made in China?"
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:16am PT
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Ed Bannister,
There are at least two ways to solve design problems. The most often used is the force method. i.e. the cliff Tech hanger breaks at 7200 lb. The other method which I think you have some feeling for is the energy method in that you would like to see and utilize deformation. The energy of destruction is the area under the stress strain curve. Setting up energy equations can be rather cumbersome and this still does not give the answer because to get the final motion equations of this analysis/system these equations need to differentiated for a meaning full solved solution. Energy methods are about how fast the energy rate is changing not simply about equillibrating energy. You get the same results.
Here is the other point about deformation. Deformation is yielding and is an indicator that failure maybe near. The forces that human falls put on hangers(even non stiff steels) would show deformation if the hangers were grossly under designed. But at breaking strengths of 25 kN human loadings do not alter the look of hangers.
The Leeper hanger was very thin and seemed quite stiff--I would like to come across some of these and pull on 'em. I suspect they are not very strong as measured by the force necessary to pull 'em apart.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:26am PT
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Matt M,
you guys and your corrosion issues. Have you ever though of using some grease? Electricians anti-oxidant? Everything we do in this world requires maintenance-there is no such thing as a one time installation--no maintenance necessary down the road. Get your asses off the couch--- monitor and replace as necessary.
A good grease is not going to be forced out by thread pressure and you will thus have a barrier between the problems generated by contact corrosion.
Etch that stainless steel with muriatic acid/water, then neutralize and spray with Rust Oleum primer spray paint--filling in the crevices. Details, yes, either we do the maintenance or we pay someone else to hear the benefits of their methods and receive their products. But in the end, entropy rules.
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Jul 21, 2011 - 10:20am PT
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Well, I recently bought a couple hundered bolt hangers for a fair price over the internet and found out upon delivery that they are all Petzl and Fixe Stainless Steel. I dont mind using them, but living in the Very Arid Far western side of Colorado I do not exactly need them. If someone has Plated hangers and were willing to pay for shipping and possibly a smidge more for the stainless we could do a swap... Send me an email if you are interested. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with some overkill!
-Jesse
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Jul 21, 2011 - 11:42am PT
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Dingus,
i think you refer to testing methods rather than design process.. no?
Generally, hangers got better as gym climbing came into vogue, but i would rather see a discussion about which are superior, rather than whose is cheapest...
and all that salted with memories of Ron Carson, who is such a nice guy, choosing placements, based on recent budget, or current inventory of bolts, rather than waiting to do the route until he had the stuff to protect it, no bolts? he just ran it out.
and, ps.. i stand corrected and educated on the plated hanger issue...
several i put up, you may never find.. casting resin mixed with local stone's sand perfect color match to the route... invisible hangers yiels an invisible route
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Jul 21, 2011 - 11:52am PT
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Ron, how about old used leepers that were on sun baked south facing routes?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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EdBannister,
of just about all design in civil/mechanical engineering one of those criteria is how strong. Stiffer steels & metals in general cost more but you use less material. There are trade offs in all design and you are fooling yourself when think you have the best that could be designed, yet alone the best of the field. As Dingus Milktaost has explicitly stated that economics rule--you have to be able to sell your product.
And no I am not referring to just testing methods. In modern design, finite elements models are processed by computers and the methodology the finite elements used likely will be some form of energy or force methods.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
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It seems if you want to "Buy America" get some of those Texas made Climb Tech. hangers. On second thought,"Are these Climb Tech hangers made in China?"
Yep. They import them. That 7200lbf number I think comes from the honked up test I did where we work hardened the hanger by breaking the testing pin first, then, loaded the hanger up second go. Bit unfair, but, the number is high enough to report. Surprised they didn't have their own test data for these. I need to bust a few more for fun...my bet is they'd all go north of 8000lbf.
Etch that stainless steel with muriatic acid/water, then neutralize and spray with Rust Oleum primer spray paint--filling in the crevices.
Uhh, not sure that's a great idear. Muriatic acid is basically (I mean acidically, ha ha) hydrochloric acid, yes? Chloride ions are a key component in stress corrosion cracking. Not sure pickling them is a good idear. Don't folks use an acid treatment to clean stainless sinks? Or, for painting for either bare metal appearance or paint adherence? Not sure the hanger benefits long term from hydrochloric acid, especially if its under any tension ie, has residual stress from either the bending/forming process, or, from installation (although a fastener tensioned onto a plate of stainless wouldn't impart much stress, methinks).
I've seen etched stainless hangers that were painted. I don't think they do well long term. Stainless takes paint ok (oil based much better than the soapification you get from painting plated hardware) without etching.
I've never seen a painted stainless hanger that has had enhanced corrosion on it from slight damage to the painted surface. Anyone?
I've got a number of etched hangers that were removed from a route in fairly dry Idaho. They don't look great. Not sure why you'd purposely want to corrode the stainless steel you are using for enhanced corrosion protection in the first place. Same thing as dipping galvanized product in vinegar. You strip off the decent corrosion protection and you'll rust that much faster. We have a bunch of routes here where folks dipped their chain to remove that shiny coating. Rust streaks prevail on the rock, and, the chain needs to be replaced fairly quickly.
Anyhoo...good stuff.
-Brian in SLC
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 21, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Standard rappel from Schoolroom on the Gate Buttress in Little Cottonwood, after the chains were replaced:
Chain was pretty rusty, and, had been soaked in vinegar to remove the shiny plating.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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Brian of SLC,
you remove the reagent and the chlorine degradation stops, especially if you neutralize it. On a sea cliff how do you remove the chlorine reagent?
Try this. Etch a hanger and then paint it with Rust Oleum metal primer for rusty metal and let the paint dry hard. Take this painted hanger and one un-etched hanger from the same lot and drop them both in muriatic acid. The paint of the painted one will long outlast the veneer of the galvanizing of the other.
Acids are used in lot of surface preparations for industry that you never hear about or see.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 21, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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Nice, ya got the American Death Triangle going without all that nasty webbing. I'd use it.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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Couch Master,
"The American Death Triangle" do you know anything about the resolution of forces in regard to strength of the bolt. "Vee dunt kneed no stin'kin veebing"
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 21, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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On a sea cliff how do you remove the chlorine reagent?
In places like Thailand and Cayman Brac, I guess you don't. Hence Ti glue-ins and rope threads, and many many busted bolts and hangers.
Crazy. I don't pretend to understand why places like the Med aren't having the same problem, except, there is a huge different in humidity. There's more bolts in the coastline in the med than you can shake a sport climber at, but, they just don't see the same failures in the seaside hardware. Dunno.
Try this. Etch a hanger and then paint it with Rust Oleum metal primer for rusty metal and let the paint dry hard. Take this painted hanger and one un-etched hanger from the same lot and drop them both in muriatic acid. The paint of the painted one will long outlast the veneer of the galvanizing of the other.
If we're talking stainless, then, there is no "galvanized" surface. Hydrochloric acid will corrode a stainless hanger, to be sure. Not sure why you'd want to do that on purpose though, as some kind of surface prep.
But, I'm not sure the point of your test. How 'bout etch a hanger, put it on a route, and, wait 15-20 years? Then compare it to an unetched hanger on a nearby route. There's a big difference in corrosion/appearance. At least the ones I've seen. Wish I had a photo handy...
I've looked into doing a home salt immersion type age test which seems to be simple enough to set up. Be kinda fun.
Acids are used in lot of surface preparations for industry that you never hear about or see.
True. So are alkaline solutions. Some used for reducing the chance of hydrogen embrittlement, etc.
I just don't see many applications in industry, where, you have a fastener used for an outdoor application, which also has to maintain some strength over time, that is stainless, that also gets an acid treatment.
Some of the testing at MSFC/NASA on launch stands and fastener corrosion is kinda interesting...there's a bunch of studies that have been published. Worth a look see maybe.
Cheers, and, good info!
-Brian in SLC
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Brian of SLC,
you fail to acknowledge that I say paint 'em. The Metolius hangers, one of which I photographed this a.m. has a shinny metallic (galvanized veneer?) over the stainless. Etch this away and you will see a
the real stainless steel surface. If it has a bunch of cracks in it you got junk steel--good luck. What ever this veneer is it goes away quickly with muriatic acid but if left on it prevents good paint adherence.
After the acid etch, good quality paint sticks to stainless. You paint them because you don't get off with the shinny material.
The point of my test is probably obvious to some. In a chlorine environment paint outlasts galvo coatings.
You seem not able to separate the use of a brief process that enhances an end result but does not continue it's form of modification when and after you are done using it.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jul 21, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
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you fail to acknowledge that I say paint 'em.
The hangers I've got samples of (and the ones I've seen in situ) are painted.
The problem with most home paint jobs is that the paint just doesn't stick that well, and, isn't durable. I've never seen a home painted hanger who's paint doesn't chip off and surely at any contact area with a biner or where the fastener tightens (galls).
The Metolius hangers, one of which I photographed this a.m. has a shinny metallic (galvanized veneer?) over the stainless.
Hmm. Wonder what that is? I can't imagine its a zinc coating or some such. Probably just a clear coat of some kind? Metolius would probably know.
What ever this veneer is it goes away quickly with muriatic acid but if left on it prevents good paint adherence.
I find the unpainted/coated Metolius hangers take paint fairly well. They also seem to darken up after being placed outside for a season or two.
The point of my test is probably obvious to some. In a chlorine environment paint outlasts galvo coatings.
Sure, undamaged paint. But, outside, with a fastener being driven through the hanger and tightened, clipping, that paint will chip. And, since you've already pitted the surface with an acid attack, now you have an enhanced surface ripe for corrosion. Instead of some dull surface corrosion that will form a naturally protective layer over the substrate.
You seem not able to separate the use of a brief process that enhances an end result but does not continue it's form of modification when and after you are done using it.
What I'm saying is your brief process doesn't enhance, but, rather hinder the end result. And, I've seen and own examples of it's inability to provide any long term corrosion protection. Ie, the hangers that were etched are worse off in the field than their counterparts that weren't etched. Once that paint gets scratched, they rust like the dickens, and, at a much higher rate than their unetched counterparts.
But, that's what I've seen. I'm certainly open to ideas about it.
My life is relatively easy when it comes to bolts/hangers. I place stainless here in the interior of the west where its relatively dry. No fancy etching or surface treatments. I paint the unpainted stuff, or, I get it powder coated (or buy precoated hangers).
Good dialog, Dingus! Thanks!
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Jul 21, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
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McGee,
your answer is patronizing.
or, should i run back to the IDSA or INDEX, and tell them they are all wrong?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jul 21, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
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Brian of SLC,
I have been doing this for years and it works. You probably think my skills of painting are like the examples you come across and then you generalize..?
Rusts like the dickens?? Get the run of this discussion straight: Were talking about painting stainless steel. Reading Comprehension??
Think of it this way. I am substituting one coating for another and one that does better than the manufacturers as demonstrated by the test.
Your words are cheap. You paint a picture of what you think the scenario is and then go on as if it were the case and then attack it. This is a straw man argument.
You seem clueless on this.
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