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yedi
Trad climber
Stanwood,wa
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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The act of climbing hasn't changed one bit. You still pull/push on things to get to the "top". What people see as the "pussification" of climbing is truly that the attitudes of the growing number of participants has diversified DILUTING the "hardness" of the sport. Back in the day, the only way to participate was with a healthy dose of boldness. This was due both to the gear available (hemp, soft pitons etc) and the type of climbing that was popular (mainly summits and high mountains). As gear advanced and climbing became stratified into many smaller disciplines, the "boldness" required to participate diminished. You could/can still be bold. It just isn't required anymore.
Don't loose sight of the fact that there are still LOADS of bold ascents going up all the time. FAs in the high mountains that are done in amazing alpine style as well as Trad climbs of high "bold" style. The hard men and women are still there, it's just that there are many more that "aren't" which changes the view a bit.
The real thing to think about is how YOU as a climber react to the changing "scene" or if new to the sport, how you perceive the "scene" for the first time.
I break down my "reactions" to the evolving climbing scene into two categories. 1) Changing attitudes that POTENTIALLY have a negative impact on the RESOURCE or historical climbs suck and need to be mitigated at all costs 2) Changing attitudes that negatively impact my "ego" as a climber are my own issue and have nothing to do with anyone else but me.
#1 gets debated a lot and I won't get into that here - that would be a whole other post.
#2 on the other hand...
Frankly, a lot of bitching about the "loss of boldness" in climbing, particularly by older US climbers, is more about their (my) ego then anything else. The newer folk don't want risk, don't seek it out, per se, and in turn, don't really care that you (I) can send R climbs or climb boldly. They say "So what?" and that, in our minds, diminishes our achievements or even more annoyingly for me, makes us question why we do such things. In the end, it is the rare climber that TRULY climbs only for himself. We all seek a little bit of recognition for what we do in this sport be it with grades, style or boldness. It may only be amongst close friends or for a much wider audience but it's still there. I don't apologize for that, it's a part of human nature to some degree. When I start to get critical of another climber for doing some silly-long stick clip or X rated climb I try and remind myself, their personal experiences and circumstances are theirs and theirs alone. So long as what they do doesn't effect me directly (chipping, retro with out an OK from authority etc etc) to each their own. PERIOD.
Someone else wants to line up on the safe 5.7 all the time (causing lines). So be it. That they don't climb 5.-- R or care that I do is my problem and mine alone.
Over my climbing career my viewpoint has changed along with all the other things in my life. I once sought out the bold (to a degree) and relished in the success and things it brought. I still love the feeling of success on a long run out slab or hard trad climb. Risk vs Reward and all that. Over time though, other things entered into the equation that changed how I went about my climbing. Wife, Kids, time for friends and family. We each choose how we prioritize such things and in turn those priorities influence our choices on the rock. I back off things more now and sport climb more now as well. I stick clip because a broken ankle is not an option when I get home. You get the idea.
Yeah, I get worked up when a debate comes up about making the 5.9 sport climb even "safer" by adding bolts. I think, "dammit, learn to CLIMB better don't bring it down to your uneducated, inexperienced level." And sometimes, frankly, I'm right. There is however, NOTHING wrong with climbers, experienced or not, lining up for a "gimme" climb. Some of my best days in the Mtns have been doing something "easy". The pure joy of pulling on stone and breathing the fresh air was more than enough for me. I wasn't worried about falls or injury. I was just out there doing what I loved. There's a reason people line up for such "Easy" classics as Deidre or Royal Arches. Sometimes it's just fun to have, well... FUN.
Climbing is not getting soft. The user group is getting larger and with it, the diversity of it's users risk tolerance.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Agreed, Matt.
Donini said.
"The older you get, the better you were."
I actually find the opposite to be true, Donini. Younger climbers are exceeding my wildest dreams.
I recall Peter Croft said something about how foolish it is to do risky climbs to prove something to someone else. They are only worth doing for yourself.
Agreed, Peter!
Layton Kor during a recent car trip with me: "The best climber is the one having the most fun. The reason for working to be a better climber is so that you can do the climbs you want to do.
Agreed, Layton!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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We're kind of mixing apples and oranges here.
BITD, a higher percentage of "average" climbers were hard. That's just the nature of the way it was.
These days, some of the young Turks can do stuff that almost none of us could do BITD, but there is a way huge percentage of gym/n00b/gumbies these days.
Does that make sense?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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AC: All I can do after seeing Sarah Palin rockclimbing: is shake my head, and go find some "nerve tonic."
All politicians used to do: was pose on a horse or with golf clubs.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Climbing was about and still is about style. If you hangdog a route it’s bad style. If you put bolts in on an existing route bad style… Period .
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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The standard is you. Can you beat yourself?
The poster from across the pond talks of the redhead routes. Proud for sure. Are those routes diminished by being the second? Is the risk only worth it for the first?
Does this matter?
The standard is you. Can you beat yourself?
As you age, can you use mental tricks to beat yourself physically? Does experience see you through?
The fun remains. The joy of the movement. The friends. The location.
The risk is there, if you want it. It's still there, when you don't.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Climbing was once about getting to the top. How you did it was irrelevant. As the game of getting to the top began to lose it's challenge, climbers came up with new things to challenge themselves with. Different way to the top. Harder ways to the top.
"Style" is just another way to add a challenge to the sport and as in the fashion world, "style" is a term oft used in climbing but not often agreed upon. Style was and is defined to some degree by the popular "mass" of the day. Standing on another person's shoulders was once "in style" as was using pitons. Those styles have faded away. "Hang-dogging" was not a good style (In the USA primarily?) because those with influence deemed it so. It added more challenge to THEIR game. Nowadays, the people playing the game have changed it to suit their idea of the game, nothing more.
Styles change over the years to suit the wishes of those playing THEIR game. We may think the current style is awful (The return of the 80s look anyone?) but those awful Maxheadroom sunglasses don't effect me one bit. Neither does someone hanging on a rope to workout moves on a route.
Hang-dogging and RETRO-bolting a route without some form of "approval" are two very different things. One is style. One is ethics. Be careful not to group them together as they are two very different arguments.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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You miss the point of style, mattm.
It's not a fashion, style is how you approach everything in your life.
It's one of the most important things you do. Your actions dictate your style. Not your dress. Do not confuse yourself.
The marketeers of the world have done our world a grave disservice by helping confuse fashion with style. Do not be deceived.
That said, how many folks walk off the Royal Arches?
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Very well put Matt. I think I agree. It’s not fare to confuse things. It’s never been how you get to the top for me. It was if I could do it as the person that put up the route, or maybe better, say free a pitch that was aided before or at least try. Style is still important in this sport. It’s what pushes the bar higher on every route. Style and good ethics go hand in hand.
Cheers, DT.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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I often wish people that discover climbing would learn the history of climbing before they try to take whatever appeals to them from climbing.
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Synchronicity
Trad climber
British Columbia, Canada
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Its funny you say that Rudder, because when I started climbing not all that long ago I loved studying the history of climbing. It has really made me respect the rock a lot more, and in turn has helped much more to focus on the mental fortitude and inner strength required for climbing, than just simply hard moves between bolts.
The satisfaction you get from "bringing yourself up to the level of the climb" is amazing. The stories that live on in climbing history seem to do so because of great advancements in the human experience at the time. People stepping out of their normal barriers and establishing ground-breaking routes.
When I want inspiration to do something bold, I think back to those stories I've heard and usually it gives me the motivation not to puss out.
This being said, I was lucky enough to start climbing outdoors first, before ever moving into a gym environment. I still only view the gym as controlled, intense training and a great place to get a burn in the cold of a Canadian winter.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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>>...when I started climbing not all that long ago I loved studying the history of climbing. It has really made me respect the rock a lot more...<<
;-)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Would that be "Rurps" or "Burps"?
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oldtopangalizard
Social climber
ca
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Nowadays I would be damn happy to be a pussy climber. At least I would be climbing. I'm lucky to get up those wimpy climbs now. Hell, I may go down to Suicide and climb Tabby Treat just to see if I can do it.
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rbolton
Social climber
The home for...
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Um...Whats wrong with pussy? Just asking.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Locker says: I think it's because it's the IN thing, easy to do, relatively cheap to get into, etc... WTH? relatively cheap? as compared to what? now that I think about it your right....carry on. These out-of-door sports are expensive brother...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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yes.. most climbers are pussies.
One the one hand I wanted to see how far I could go with difficulty.
On the other hand.. I didn't want to die when I did push my own limit.
It's an odd place to be, this point in the history of climbing.
There have been so many over the year that have pushed their (and the climbing community as a whole) limits in order to achieve some stated or unstated goal. Some have completed the task. Most have followed behind them and found out for themselves what is and is not possible, if only for themselves (i.e. "I can do that route" followed by a mid-pitch whimper and retreat)
Taking up the baton on the "new ground" is going to be getting more difficult for the youngsters. All the best rock has been climbed. Until there is a breakthrough in thought, or climbing ability there will be no trailblazers, as there once was.
Not sure if I'd call climbers of today pussies as much as letting them know that only the first ascent of a route really counts. All others are, again, testing the climbers that follow.
It's still a great activity and I'd never cut down anyone for trying it out, as there is much to be learned about ones self in the activity: patience, perseverance, strength, tact, method... and nine yeards more.
Good question Ron.
Thanks
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The evolution of climbing
The mechanization of climbing
The commercialization of climbing
The proliferation of climbing
The socialization of climbing
The pussification of climbing
Yeah, as a progression that's about right.
It's amazing how fast you can get from this to where we are today.
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