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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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certainly since Galileo and Newton, the position of science at the universities was viewed quite negatively by the "humanists." A lot of this sort of discussion occurs on another thread (or two) having to do with philosophy and science as opposing viewpoints.
The bulk of the studies at universities over their history have been the understand man's role in the universe, and while this had a distinctly religious bias in early universities, more recently the humanities and especially philosophy took religion's place. I would argue that a "liberal education," and its goals, largely opposed a scientific education and its goals.
In modern times this revolves around the supposed priority that science claims in terms of establishing knowledge, a priority not given to it by modern critics. In some views, science is just one of many possible explanations and can make no claim to be superior based on its philosophical foundations.
While at this time the entire academy is targeted in the culture wars as a bastion of liberal thought, the centuries old animus that exists between these areas of academe has been suppressed.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 13, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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Dr. F.: The problem is always "lip service" and the real support of science is with $$$$$ and lots of it. I personally decry the Obama Administration's cancellation of the Manned Space Flight element of the Constellation project, as being "too expensive." We are now left without ANY heavy orbital lift capacity on completion of the final few space shuttle missions.
The now-under-construction James Webb Space Telescope is due to be lifted by a European Space Agency Ariene V rocket from French Guiana in 2014. I personally would rather see our tax dollars be used in the construction of a new heavy-lift rocket, than blowing the $hit out of people in Afghanistan. I was quite excited about the Constellation Program and the Ares I and Ares V, that used lots of hardware developed in our 50 years of space science. We now have NOTHING!
I also decry the difficulties in stem cell research; I abhor the use of fetal stem cells, but there is also "ethical" stem cell research using umbilical cords, placental sources, and bone marrow. This is why the Germans and Chinese are well ahead of us. Yeah, I know--it's the religious nut cases there. That's also why I stated "ethical' stem cell research.
Some major changes need to be made at the NIH, as well, and especially at the FDA that really slows the availability of new and promising drugs to the "pipeline."
I could go on for hours on government interference in real science, but it is also unfortunate that lots of money is always needed, and "the government" which is really us, the taxpayers, that fund everything.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Sep 13, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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fear and stupidity are the weapons these tools wield..
right and left
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 13, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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I hope you're not counting on that happening in November.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 13, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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I think it is important to realize the Republicans have swept up and polarized a huge group of people that have little in common, except their dislike of: “what’s happening to America.” The correct quote would be "What happened to America" - during the last 30 years of Republican misrule.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 13, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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Dr. F.-
The so-called Neo-Con Republicans are being targeted by the Tea Partiers as much as are the establishment Democrats. What is actually happening is that the electorate is totally disgusted with PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS! I personally dislike politicians, just as a matter of general principle. Why don't we have really ethical politicians? The answer lies in answering the question of why would any truly ethical person want to be in politics?
Perhaps my answer would astound you, but I've been approached several times by the Republican party to run for State Senate, and I turned them down flat; I HAVE A LIFE, and I want to live it my own way. Maybe I could do "some good," but then---I'd have to associate with POLITICIANS, whom I hate.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Sep 13, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Sounding the anti-science alarm is a proven rhetorical ploy. First, it allows the accuser to flatter themselves for their assumed superior intellect. And representing issues as a clash… between the forces of reason and ignorance… demonstrates itself to be one of the most effective public relations maneuvers since the beginnings of the republic. It engages the American affection for scientism …conferring upon OUR definitions of “science” …an authority that may or may not be relevant.
Intended consequence: Disagree with what science, or what (ahem) WE the scientists say, and you betray yourself as a crazed buffoon with a club in one hand, a match in the other, ready to burn books and trash laboratories.
In no way can your own opinions be valid.
Sneering down one’s nose is not reasoned argument or debate, but as a political wile, it's often argument enough.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 13, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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Dr. F.-
My adviced to you is....don't sit down, you'll break your neck!!
It's getting late now, and this is becoming tiresome; good night.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 13, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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The far right wing?
yup. Resistance to change.
the average person that considers himself conservative.... who knows. Painting with a broad brush like that is always something tricky because people tend to think for themselves.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 13, 2010 - 01:59am PT
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this is coming from a conservative, of course... well a fiscal / social conservative. Lotta sh!t I don't like on either side of the coin. Its weird how now personal freedoms are better found on the left and personal responsibility is somehow on the right... I love me some jesus but its no ones business but my own, I love the wilderness and our awesome planet but I eat meat (preferably heavily processed meat). I hate taxes and don't trust politicians, but somehow have a belief in a representative government.
I'm a man without a country.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 13, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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It's very simple.
Faith trumps evidence, reason and logic.
I don't care what evidence you show me, nor what logic you use, it's immaterial to what I believe.
If by chance I'm a candidate for office or in office, the money you put in my back pocket will keep me convinced I'm right.
Obama's not a natural born US Citizen, he's also a Muslim.
In other words "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts"
or Albert Einstein "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
Harry Truman "We must have strong minds, ready to accept facts as they are."
Linus Pauling "Facts are the air of scientists. Without them you can never fly."
and from a Theologian (Cardinal Newman)
"Let us take things as we find them let us not attempt to distort them into what they are not. We cannot make facts. All our wishing cannot change them. We must use them."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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Jeff, it would be heartening to hear the political leadership of the country stand up and provide their support to science, to depoliticize it...
...there is very little heard from the political leadership, especially from the Republican side of the aisle. That is not delusional.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 13, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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fatty
much as I disagree with you on many opinions, I agree with you here.
There are plenty of intelligent and informed people on the "right".
And plenty of twits on the "left"
It does appear that many of the far right who get the stage and are setting the agenda are delusional puppets or corrupt or demagogues, or all three (Hannity, Limberger, Gingrich, Dick Armey, Boehner).
I seldom agreed with William F. Buckley's conclusions but never doubted his intelligence or integrity. Would he be denying global warming like Boehner? I doubt it. I'm sure he'd be arguing conservative solutions. Of course he might be labeled a sellout to liberal ideals today.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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He got one of the corners of deceit right- the media, namely his portion of it. The guy is so around the bend his rantings don't really deserve comment.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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The extremes on both the left and right are often anti-science, whether it's denial of anthropogenic global warming from the right or denial of the efficacy of mordern western medicine from the left. None of these views are worth spending a lot of time discussing.
Ed's comment, on the other hand, has much to commend it. Of course, that also implies that we some idea of what to do with the scientific knowledge we gain. More often than not, dealing with that knowledge implies the use of economics. Sad to say, the extreme right and extreme left are even more anti-economics than they are anti-science, and the general public is alarmingly ignorant.
John
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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A better title for this thread: Is the Left Wing Anti-Reality?
Liberals prefer to wield the weapons of fear and stupidity. Their cable
news outlets commit the sin of omission constantly, in a lame effort to
misinform the public and get voters to vote Democrat.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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Pfft...yes.
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JLB
Trad climber
Smiths, AL
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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I am a Christian, and love the environment. I serve on several boards promoting a clean environment, seeking to penalize anyone (individual, corporation, or government) violating clean water laws. I LOVE the environment and science. However, I strongly believe people come first. I do not believe people randomly evolved ultimately from non-matter. I do believe they are divinely designed and created, making them worth dying for. I do not believe evolutionists have answered all the questions needed for anyone to say "evolution is a fact." There is always one more question anytime someone presents proof of evolution or the big bang - "where did that matter come from?" or "Where did the energy come from?" I know it takes faith to believe what I believe and I completely acknowledge that, but I believe it takes faith in the unknown to believe evolution too. I mean, you have to believe a lot to think matter came from non-matter, or creatures before gave birth to creatures not like themselves. You have to believe a lot to think man has been around for millions and millions of years but only learned to start writing and recording history in the last several thousand years. I believe Stephen Hawking is probably the most brilliant man on the planet, but I believe he believes what the start of the universe is more than he knows and can proove. Doesn't mean I don't completely appreciate his work and his theories, it just means I think for myself. Bottom line though, is not one of us or any scientist you study was there in the beginning so no person can tell you how we came to be. But, before someone hates on the Bible, try reading it. Read it critically. I believe it stands up. There is tons of great science in the Bible. It is awesome. People say - "But the Bible talks about unicorns!", and immediately dismiss it. Well, take the time to think critically about it - the Indian Rhino species name is Rhinocerus Unicornis. So why is the Bible discredited but not the scientists who gave that species its name? Think for yourself, there is a lot of good information out there so you can be informed and not just go off your knee-jerk opinion.
I am consevative in nature, work hard and pay my taxes. I believe there is nothing wrong with profits. However, doing the right thing - morally, environmentally, socially - is way more important than having a great bottom line. What are you teaching your kids otherwise?
Blanketly putting me or anyone else in a "cultist" status is as narrow-minded as anything I've seen. Give people a chance. I believe for the most part, people are good and want to do the right thing. I believe people get passionate about there ideas and stop seeing right and wrong, defending their ideas becomes way more important. And that is where the problems start. Look at the climbing community - for the most part, people are helpful and caring. Yeah, I've gotten annoyed with other climbers, you have too, and I am sure I have annoyed others. But for the most part, climbers are good people who would help others where they could. I think new climbers or non-climbers who see this forum and the spew about others being closed-minded, would be turned off.
Long-winded - yeah. Please forgive me for that. Just want people to open their hearts and minds. Peace.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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"But, before someone hates on the Bible, try reading it."
Calling Norton...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
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What we are all really discussing is perception-that which the "media' spoon feed the masses. In reality, I don't trust the media any more than I trust any politicians. They too, have an agenda.
I was in actuality too tired last night to really state that my views are, with only a few small exceeptions, Libertarian. I find the "neo-con" agenda as repellent as I find the ultra liberal Demo-rat agenda.
I don't believe that the "right wing" is anti-science; there is a group-within-a group that is hysterically anti everything, and pointing to the Bible to prove their point(s).
Also, I do not decry Christianity as a religion, since it was intimately involved in the formation of our country. Nor do I criticize everyone who is a Christian as being a "whack job," as other posters here have done.
Lets keep from tarring too many people with an overly broad brush, and try to keep things civil!
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