Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
JC5123
Big Wall climber
Casper, WY
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
|
While I agree the McCrystal should be diciplined for this, They should probably leave him in place. I also consider the article. Michael Hastings, the reporter (I use that word loosely) has done several hatchet jobs on high profile people in the past. He may have been using quotes, but without context, who knows for sure.
The dear leader is actually smart to meet with him before any action is taken. However remember how narcissistic BHO is. I have never seen anyone be so sensitive to criticism, at least since Saddam. But I think he may have learned something from the beer summit.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
|
Failure to dismiss = banana republic.
Who cares who takes over? The whole thing is a fool's errand anyway.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
|
"Who cares who takes over? The whole thing is a fool's errand anyway."
Another strong reason why dismissing McChrystal (or accepting his 'resignation') is the best course of action- McChrystal was no wunderkind magistrate of the AfPak effort- there are sure to be others who are more capable and have as good or better judgment than he has shown.
The public has a tendency to become enamored and fixated on some military generals as though they are the omnipotent, omniscient individuals who can lead us out of the mayhem (Petraeus being the most recent example). While their service is honorable and exceptional, it needs to be better understood that they are replaceable.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
|
Patreus has a PhD in International Relations. If he's the replacement, maybe this will help regarding relations.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
|
Looks like McChrystal is officialy toast.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
|
http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na
Fired!
President Obama removed Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal from his position and tapped Gen. David H. Petraeus to lead the war effort in Afghanistan, a White House official said.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
|
Say what?
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
|
I think Obama's speech reflected why he was elected and why he's a good leader. Impeccable it was. Impeccably explained. Impeccably presented.
The word is Patraeus is tired. If true, hope he can hang in there and succeed. Remember, he fainted before Congress last week. How many years and long days at work so far? Awesome responsibilities ahead...
|
|
pc
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
|
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)
ART. 88 - CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
And
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)
ART. 89 DISRESPECT TOWARD SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER
Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Note: For specific details concerning this offense, including elements of proof, maximum punishments, and detailed explanation, see Punitive Articles of the UCMJ.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
|
Hey, Ron- your trolling services would be welcome over on the 'Repubs are Wrong' thread- we're getting kinda tired of the regular Repug trolls over there.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
|
Hey, Ron- your trolling services would be welcome over on the 'Repubs are Wrong' thread- we're getting kinda tired of the regular Repug trolls over there.
Fresh meat. Fresh meat. Fresh meat...
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
|
Well, Ron, I just know I was impressed, that I couldn't have summed it up better. :)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
|
I think the President had no choice but to replace McCrystal. The General’s comments and those of his staff (plus the implication that much more was said off the record) poisoned the relationship and trust between the commanders in the field and the President’s staff and advisors. I’m sure the political side was factored in as well, knowing that even Obama’s most loyal supporters would have been stunned by anything less.
That said, it is worth noting that nothing the General said rises to the level of insubordination or contempt. Portraying this event as similar in any way to the clash between Truman and McCarthur misreads history. McCarthur's threats of insubordination caused a true crisis in the command structure. McCrystals comments cost him his command, but never called into question who was in charge. I read the article, and the words “wimps in the Whitehouse” were written by the reporter, not the General. Obama spoke well of the General while doing what he must.
The question as to whether this was a calculated move by McCrystal has been raised. Seems to me more like he got sandbagged, had a “Patton moment” as was said upthread (but it was more than a moment as the reporter was there for two weeks.) Time will tell. I can certainly understand him not wanting to manage what he sees as a failed effort while losing men under his command.
President Obama has called on Gen Patraeus to take over, bringing us “success” over there. The big question now is what is meant by success.
Anyone besides me think the big winner in this mess might be Hillary Clinton?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
|
Fattrad
healyje is right about the conflicts, we need more boots on the ground for a victory and get the media to stop crying over collateral damage.
There is no 'victory' to be had in Afghanistan. Just the use of the word is naive in the extreme. More troops in a COIN role where you secure ground you sweep would allow you to attempt to work on stabilizing the place, but that would take upwards of 4-600k force levels. And even that just buys you a decade of misery and corruption. It's never been worth the effort and occupying the country is a mistake.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
|
TGT said I'll bet it's 50/50 that BHO refuses to accept the resignation, to look magnanimous and to have someone to pin the blame on later when his June 2011 deadline comes and goes.
Wow a 50/50 bet? Don't get too specific here, TGT. I guess that way you can be right either way while still spouting your irrational drivel. There's a 50/50 chance that you'll respond to this post by the way. Calling it now. Also there's a 50/50 shot you'll choose to see Obama firing the General as somehow weak/cowardly/Nazi/fascist. Man I'm all over this 50/50 thing.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
|
All I can say is, I told u so... Obama, is a spine less, do nothing prez, who throws everyone under the bus. He just sent boys off to die without the tools they need. The General knew he'd be fired, he doesn't want to work for mister no balls anymore.
Give me a break coz. Obama didn't send those boys and girls off to die. Don't forget that he was handed this war.
You can't possibly be advocating for Generals to have the power to do and say whatever they want. Our system and our strength comes from civilian control of the military, it always has. Do nothing Prez had the power and the ballz to send Mr Big Ballz general packing.
You've never served, you're a chicken hawk. I respect you as a climber, but I sure don't buy that sh*t.
"Public arrogance among the civilian elite is understood. Among the unwashed ranks of the military, it is unacceptable."
They would have run my a** up a flagpole for talking sh*t to the press about my superiors. I expect general piehole to be held to the same standard that they stood me tall for.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
|
and the General volunteered to take a bullet to help point this out
Wow, how noble of him.
He didn't volunteer to take a bullet, he and his men flapped their faces. Worst of all, they know better, a LOT better.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
|
"...im no repug troller..."
Yeah, I suppose that's true, Ron. For all of your hyberbolic rantings and borderline racist terminology (i.e. 'Obammy'), you actually do make an effort to dialogue, which is more than can be said for some of the Repug trolls on that other thread. Thanks for your efforts (I mean that).
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 23, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
|
Jesus, Anderson, are you completely unhinged from logic and reality? So far your comments keep reading like something from a deluded, victimal comic book. Do you have anything constructive or remotely insightful to contribute here or is it all just drool and foam?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!