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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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And again, I bid all of you kind folks good day. I must go take people rock climbing, as that's my job and how I afford to pay for internet service to chat with all you folks.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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What a can of worms opened here.. I do find the original topic interesting for public knowledge Seth. Im curious if the few areas mentioned have anything really exciting for international destination quality. You got to admit if you mention climbing in Europe to a client they will most likely immediately think of the alps.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:10am PT
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amga is good at discouraging people from getting into guiding, but most of the members i met at their convention in the early 90s were a lot nicer than ron and tucker here. was that just before they kicked you out, ron? (ducking)
i'm a recreational climber who finds himself mentoring others informally just by the fact that i'm experienced. almost every time i go out, i encounter people who need it. a stranger at stoney recently asked me "how do you do that tie-in knot?" as he was about to belay his wife and young children. i shuddered to think about the anchors he had set. another fellow's idea of dropping a rope into the crowd below was to drop the whole bag. you hate to chew a nice guy out in front of his girlfriend, but he could've broken my neck. a glum couple at echo were about to go home after the hour's drive and the long hike in because he had forgotten to pack his harness. he smiled ear-to-ear for the rest of the day after i showed him a bowline on a coil. stuff like that makes me think i ought to get into guiding.
if you know anything about climbing, you know a lot of the sport can be self-learned, and you often learn the most in brushes with danger. there will always be a place for the superclimber guide--who wouldn't want to spend a day with a god if you can afford it?--and also for guides who cater to wealthy adventurers, the kind who send their kids to the university for spoiled children. (you ought to look into the history of prescott, tucker--i think bootstrap college in the spirit of john muir might be a better description.) whatever--i think there's a whole crowd being missed, and the pcgi people have been trying a lot harder to reach them than the amga.
business is slow these days, everyone knows that. but think for a minute. they say that the movie business thrived all the way through the great depression. people would literally spend the last dimes they had on an afternoon in the theater to forget their troubles. i see opportunity for growth in climbing because of that, and it'd be nice to see both guide groups putting their heads together about it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Tony,
I was at all the AMGA annual meetings, or conventions as you call it, through the early '90s.
Indeed, not only was I a member through '05, but they would have preferred that I had remained one, as I donated thousands over the years into their scholarship fund.
Shame on you for foisting such BS
(just like your erroneous previous claim)
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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Ryan,
Greece has outstanding sport climbing, people hire guides/instructors for Greece alot. All of Switzerland (areas mentioned by Seth included) is in the "Alps" and Spain has world class rock climbing as well, where people hire guides all the time, so does alot of Italy. Have you ever I climbed in Europe? I have its really awesome and I have never, ever climbed in the "Alps" Are you guiding this Summer, you called me a while back about a Summer position, never heard back from ya. Hope you are well. I got go work now/out the door, need to be in Mammoth by 9, see ya.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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sorry for the loose talk, mister congeniality. it was in reponse to this scrupulously accurate posting:
Isn't there some group that, fearful (perhaps with good reason) of not cutting it with the AMGA (which has parity with the UIAGM), cooked up their own little mutual back-slapping association and try to come off like they are as skilled, experienced, knowledgeable and competent?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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Well coz,
I've moved on too, but I don't think I'm capping on anybody but have asked some questions that have caused some discomfort.
Well here is my discomfort; I spent years becoming an AMGA certified rock guide and, (never mind the fact that an AMGA cert and $3.75 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks) can't help but see at least some of those that try to side step an internationally recognized process as spoilers.
This even more so when on occasion I encounter glibness about being AMGA certified when it turns out they aren't or have merely taken a top roping course.
And of course the elephant in the room is the history and politics of how the various organizations came to be,...
but back to europe!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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while we're talking about the alphabet soup, that's a big problem for older guys. i didn't know what toproping was until my third year climbing. i got into climbing when trad was the only kind and placing stoppers and hexes on lead was the only way. pitons had just been verbotenized and cams were a couple years around the bend. in retrospect, it was a terrific discipline, but it certainly wouldn't be considered "fun" today.
and ron, seriously. all these "levels" of certification get to be ridiculous after awhile. i don't have any of it, but i've done my share of handling situations where they're called for. i'm afraid you've let it go right to your ego, and in that you're missing one of the most important lessons of the mountains.
zeke--didn't peter croft write something about certification recently? wouldn't hurt to post it here.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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Hey Tony,
New Subject: Climbing! What did you think of those routes I put up in Bishop Creek, last year? Lets hook up and put some routes up!
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pm330
Trad climber
Ann Arbor, MI
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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I also wondered about the veracity of PCGI's claims, which motivated me to post.
From my consumption and knowledge with respect to guiding and both organizations, I'd make the following analogy: PCGI is to junior college as AMGA is to the Ivy League. PCGI needs to avoid dumbing down the standards and confusing the public.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Springdale UT
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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I think you meant to say that Comunity College is to Ivy Leage as PCGI is to AMGA...all syllogistic errors aside, there is no dumbing down or confusion purveyed through the PCGI courses.
Instruction, standards and information are objective. PCGI exists because there are people who are looking for all three without having to sacrifice individual attention. When one groups gets so big that it loses touch with its base group of constituents(as I and many others feel the AMGA has done), it only makes sense that another group will form in order to meet that need.
The AMGA has valuable courses and I have never heard any of my PCGI mentors naysay that fact; however for those who are on the "bottom tier" (those not IFMGA certified or interested in going that far) are largely overlooked and PCGI is small enough at this point to keep their instruction affordable and personal.
The fact that there is (or at least was within the last 6 months) reciprocity between the two organizations in terms of certifications demonstrates that there is not lesser degree of validity between the two bodies.
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karsten delap
climber
IN
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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I will speak for the AMGA here.
There is not reciprocity from PCGI to AMGA and never has been.
They don't meet the standards at any level.
For 10 bucks you can get reciprocity to PCGI.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Porkchop,
wasn't that an example of PCGI doublespeak?
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pm330
Trad climber
Ann Arbor, MI
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Jul 20, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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@Porkchop, Thank you for cleaning up my syntactical error, as well as succinctly elucidating my community-college argument.
As with most higher education, you get what you pay for. I suspect the same is true with climbing instruction.
I have done my research.
I know with certainty what I am getting with the AMGA: instruction vetted internationally by UIAGM and UIAA. I don't know what I am getting when I hire one of a handful of non-AMGA guides.
You speak about a niche being filled, but from what I've read, last year the AMGA had their instructor program endorsed by the UIAA. That sounds like a void filling to me.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
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Porkchop writes:
The AMGA has valuable courses and I have never heard any of my PCGI mentors naysay that fact; however for those who are on the "bottom tier" (those not IFMGA certified or interested in going that far) are largely overlooked
The future of the AMGA certification program will be like a pyramid, with the base and foundation (The majority of AMGA Certified Guides) being SPI Certified Guides working in a top-rope or single-pitch environment. The top of the pyramid will be the IFMGA guides (currently less than 100 in the U.S) that are certified in the rock guide, alpine and ski mtng. disciplines.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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PCGI courses and assessments are not "dumbed down" in any way shape or form. Our courses are top notch!!!!!!!!!!! It is true that the curriculum is quite similar but the educational model and follow up of PCGI mentors is quite different than either the PCIA or the AMGA. I know this from personal experience with all three organizations. In fact our lead guide course is quite proprietary and the Rescue course covers techniques other orgs are not touching.
As far as confusing the general public 90 percent (guestamation) are unaware of either the PCGI, PCIA, or the AMGA. Most people hire a guide service who a. has a nice web page that lists high on Google or Yahoo, b. returns their call the fastest, and c. meets their price point.
I cannot speak for PCGI as a organization but my personal separation from the AMGA was political. I was a paying member for over 10 years. As far as me teaching PCGI courses I loose money...... I guide full time (200+ days/year) and give up client days to teach these courses. Rich clients tip way better than aspiring guides. I teach the courses because I believe in PCGI's mission and enjoy teaching high end skills.
On that note I might be teaching a privatized MPG or Lead guide course in the fall. JT will be the course area. Because this course will be privatized I can charge what ever I want..... If it would help to end the slander I would encourage some of you nay-sayers to partake in the course..... I'll give you a hell of a deal...... Maybe you could learn something from me, maybe I can pick up some tricks from you.
Busy working full time at Devils Tower right now...... Today was my 21st ascent of the Durance route. Started my day at 4am..... Tired, you all have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seth
After writing this I saw BG's post above. First let me say I have the up most respect for BG both as a person and a guide. I would like to offer though that unlike the AMGA we at the PCGI view our courses as lateral rather than a pyramid. The different types of training we offer are terrain specific. What a SPG or SPI guide does on any given day is very different than what a Multi-pitch guide or Rock instructor might accomplish with a client in a day. To me the pyramid model has the potential to build a us and them environment.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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I get the impression that Seth is the real deal, but some of my interaction with other PCGI guides leaves me with the impression that they are four-flushers.
Add to this that the one sided offer of parity is a pitifully veiled attempt to bolster their ranks with bona fide AMGA certified guides.
That the general public and, worse yet, land managers haven't a clue as to how to evaluate the skill, experience and, paramount of all, judgement of guides is a sad state of affairs.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:39am PT
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Facts on PCGI Reciprocity for AMGA certs:
The PCGI reciprocity for AMGA certification cost is $20.00. The reciprocity offer will no longer be available after March 15, 2011. That is to say, after March 15, 2011, PCGI will not offer reciprocity for any level of AMGA certification. See this link to the PCGI site for details: http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/site/content/view/45/115/
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apogee
climber
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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"That the general public and, worse yet, land managers haven't a clue as to how to evaluate the skill, experience and, paramount of all, judgement of guides is a sad state of affairs. "
I'd agree with the former, but would dread the day that land managers and federal or state regulation became predominant in the certification process of the US outdoor/adventure education industry. To some extent this has happened already in the US, and there are certainly precedents for it internationally, but I just don't have much faith that any federal or state regulatory bodies could ever do a reasonable job of 'evaluating the skill, experience and judgment of guides'.
As scattershot as the guiding/certification options have become in the US, I have more confidence that market forces will ultimately result in a higher quality instructional and certification process.
Holy shite! That sounds like a Republagumby!
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