Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
|
All the anger, never seen a belay loop fail, tell that to the Skinner family. Was that a BD harness Coz?
I worked for BD as a tech rep, BD does not tac their loops the same as most companies and they are not as strong. could you please provide some pull-test data to back up that accusation?
I am just pointing out facts, pure simple facts. No, you are making speculations.
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
|
I am also very disappointed by coz's statements. They are incorrect and misleading.
Chief and locker need to do some more reading.
Erik
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
|
I wish the raw data from the harness testing sponsered by Arc'teryx was available.
Was summarized in a Rock and Ice magazine article, I seem to recall. I'd really like to see the testing numbers.
Recall that older harnesses did fairly well against the newer ones.
I've never had an issue with a belay loop on a harness, but, I retire mine fairly regularly. Just wish the BD harnesses fit me better. I've gone to a Metolious for rock climbing, but, the buckle is super hard to finish strappin' into (to the point I almost bruise my thumb and fingers putting it on). Figure I just got a tight one. Other than that, I find the harness (safe tech) super comfy especially for longer hanging periods.
-Brian in SLC
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
|
If you are worrying about the sewing...worry no more...Yates
The only thing that might not pass your criteria may be the buckle.
Just talk to John Yates and tell him what you want.
Deuce you have enough clout to design your own through him...
 ec
|
|
MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
|
Coz: I work on the R and D of their harnesses,
Jeesus, no wonder they are "unsafe".
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
|
Goodbye coz! Amazing what happens when we try discussing the facts vs. feelings and past history.
Erik
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
|
No anger Coz, but I don't think that you are not pointing out facts. Rgold is pointing out facts, you are speculating on how shitty Black Diamonds stuff is. I've seen lots of BD testing on their harness, they test the sh#t out of them, they make high quality products and those are the real facts.
coz said: If you do not know that bar tacking all three layers is stronger, then go figure out on your own. Call BD they will be happy to show you the data. It is so basic. Todd died on an Arteryx harness (I heard) that has a far stronger belay loop, one that is bar tac all the way through, Petzl also bar tacs all the way through, as does just about everyone. There is no speculation, it's just is a fact. It's such a basic thing, you don't need data. I work on the R and D of their harnesses, wore them for years, I do not like the belay loop, and don't trust it.
So, I am done posting I have made my point and it is a fact.
Yup: Todd's was the only harness I've heard break and it was an Arteryx not a BD. You have some facts and that is one of them, that and the way the bar tacks are constricted, but you don't know what it would test too. Other than that, bring some testing info. I would not bet money that any Metolius would not kick any Black Diamonds harness's ass, Metolius makes some burly beefy stuff, but that in no way in no way makes the BD's unsafe. Scott, it's only your opinion. Opinion sir! Bring some real testing data. Please don't think I'm being angry here or dissing on you, Your opinion is great, speaking for myself, I weight your opinion very very highly and love to hear it, but I'd suggest you present it as opinion when it is opinion and not facts: I'm just saying. I'd like to hear what Black Diamond says to all of this as well, if they do have a skeleton in the closet. I've talked with Bill Bellencourt, head product designer, about the C3 and other cams, and the design consideration, testing and checking that BD goes through is damn impressive to say the least.
Warm regards
ps, John, side note: don't forget that Russ at Fish Products makes a kick assed harness, probably too big for what you want.
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
|
What about that poor girl who fell on that helicopter tyrolean traverse when her bd harness failed? You know, that bolt gun rescue guy, and the hurt knee, on top of the spire. Buckles are clearly the weakpoint.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
|
Ace Ventura, When Nature Calls...that buckle failure was rad...
|
|
handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
|
Chief,
KP's tests are over four years old and are in no way a response to Coz's unfounded claims. KP clearly states in the blog that he is cutting the webbing and not the bar tacks in most of the tests.
In the test where he did cut fully through two of the four bar tacks the belay loop still held up to CE standards. To me, this indicates that the bar tacks have very little influence on the strength of the belay loop. I strongly suggest you reread the report to correct your misunderstandings.
Want to try a fun experiment? Get some 1 inch tubular webbing and triple-wrap it like a belay loop. Hold it together with some duct tape. Now bounce test it. Now pull it with your truck.
The strength of a belay loop does not come from the bar tacks but rather from the friction of the the webbing.
Would you trust your pilot to fix your airplane? Why would Coz have any idea about physics, engineering or structural testing?
Again, I don't work for BD, but I am a fierce opponent of unfounded fear mongering such as Coz's claims.
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
|
Chief and Locker,
Then talk about what you like and use instead of choking on your feet after talking and raising questions about harnesses you know nothing about and are too ............ to figure out.
Erik
|
|
jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
|
lol...why do i bother...?
I truly hope that this is not the norm for any QA/QC individual in describing their eq testing to any of their customer's. Misleading info such as this one is not very professional IMO.
Just saying....
Thanks....
At no point does KP indicate the three tests you reference have anything to do with bar tack damage. They are simply tests of failure when the belay loop is partially cut through. They really have nothing to do with this discussion.
My point exactly. I am not the one that introduced this test to substantiate a claim to counter Coz's statement. I merely brought forth the point that you so clearly elude to.
Thanks for agreeing with me.
riiiiiight...
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
|
locker,
You are missing the point. My main problem with coz's statements is him saying BD harnesses are unsafe. This is simply not true. He has no facts to support this argument. (Only feelings and his vast experience.) No accidents cited. No close calls cited. No substandard strength data. Before he abandoned this conversation he had not supported any of his accusations dealing with safety.
I acknowledge that the bar tacks on BD harnesses do not go completely thru the visible portion of the belay loop. It does not make them unsafe!
I will be surprised if BD does not contact coz privately. His comments should be retracted.
Erik
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
|
Please do indicate where I do not show the actual cutting of the Sewn Through Four Bar Tacks that are in question here by Coz's claim and my original post regarding the "Cutting through Tests" by KP... please.
2 of 4 tacks cut—3970 lbf:
All tacks heavily abraded across file surface—5280 lbf:
All tacks heavily abraded across file surface—5338 lbf:
All tacks heavily abraded across file surface—7429 lbf:
|
|
jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
|
|
|
May 26, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
|
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:23am PT
|
Locker,
Do you think your BD harness is safe?
Erik
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:30am PT
|
PROBABLY safe
Is there proof?
smiley emoticon here :-)
|
|
labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:57am PT
|
locker,
I went back a read that you think they are probably safe. Sorry I missed it previously. I seemed to be more focused on coz and it seemed you were blindly following his lead. I do understand supporting people you know and respect but his statments were over the line.
Erik ( :
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
|
blindly following
Fair analogy for many of the statements that try to be coherent arguments around here.
I can't (won't) speak for anyone else, but I am more likely to trust someone's judgment if they make mostly coherent, mostly gracious, mostly defensible arguments... most of the time.
And on the flip side I am inclined to NOT trust someone's judgment if they make mostly intransigent, mostly incoherent, mostly indefensible arguments... ever.
What's that Talking Head's tune? Stop Making Sense? This ain't about bartacks, this is about listening to (and by extension trusting implicitly) persons who DO. NOT. MAKE. SENSE.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!