Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
Guard against the prestige of great names; see that your judgments are your own; and do not shrink from disagreement; no trusting without testing.
Author: John Dalberg Acton
If you have learned how to disagree without being disagreeable, then you have discovered the secret of getting along -- whether it be business, family relations, or life itself.
Author: Bernard Meltzer
Sorry for the misinterpretation of the climb name before, I'm not a Kansas fan, but I can see how these lyrics inspired:
Kansas Icarus--Borne On The Wings Of Steel lyrics
Early in the morning sunlight
Soaring on the wings of dawn
Here I'll live and die with my wings in the sky
And I won't come down no more
Higher than a bird I'm flying
Crimson skies of ice and fire
Borne on wings of steel I have so much to feel
And I won't come down no more
Sail on, sail on, I will rise each day to meet the dawn
So high, so high
I've climbed the mountains of the sky
Without my wings you know I'd surely die
I found my freedom flyin' high
I've climbed the mountains of the sky
Floating on a cloud of amber
Searching for the rainbow's end
Earth so far below me,
I'm here alone, free
I can't come down no more
|
|
yo
climber
NOT Fresno
|
|
What Fish said. Exactly.
YOU CAN'T CONTROL WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT YOUR ROUTE.
Let's put it this way: If I were a wholesome Adventist girl you met at a barn raising, and you wanted to marry me, and I declined your offer...you would keep calling and keep calling and keep calling. You can't make me love you. In fact, the more you call makes me love you less and less.
Thanks for the discussion, boys. Congrats on your El Cap FAs. I'm out.
|
|
jeff benowitz
climber
|
|
two small things, yes it takes two tango, but it only takes one to dance-or sh#t for that matter. causation is a very complicated matter(no pun intended).
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
|
|
WoS guy...
Here is the part you don't get. I really don't give a sh#t and neither should you. I'm flattered by numerous uses of YOU, meaning me in your post. But, I'm not the one putting the kinks in your warped view of the world... YOU are. I posted my opinion, and YOU decided to go mental. As for psychobabble, here is some more: GET HELP.
Let me restate it for you: I don't give a sh#t about your route, and my opinion is just that my opinion.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
this thread has become like a traffic accident, i really don't want to look anymore, but...
hey, did warren ever tell you that you should have hauled the slab w/ a cart?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Regardless of the disclaimers to the contrary it's pretty evident from this thread that a lot of the ill-will and bad vibes still shining through all these years later isn't coming from the WoS crew. I can only imagine how much worse it must have been back when it was going down. And this isn't the first time I've heard about sh#t being used as the root form of communication down there.
Just curious what Warren thought of the route and all the excrementive fandango around it..?
|
|
darod
Trad climber
New York
|
|
"Regardless of the disclaimers to the contrary it's pretty evident from this thread that a lot of the ill-will and bad vibes still shining through all these years later isn't coming from the WoS crew. I can only imagine how much worse it must have been back when it was going down. And this isn't the first time I've heard about sh#t being used as the root form of communication down there."
I have to second that. Very clear, and very dissapointing too.
|
|
Tork
climber
Yosemite
|
|
Largo,
Call your boyz in Hollyhood, I think we have a great action/drama /love story here. Complete with evil villains, misunderstood do gooders, and even a superhero. We will let the audience figure out who's who. I can see it now WINGS OF STEEL aka POS. Even the thought of the soundtrack is giving me goosebumps.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2005 - 01:27pm PT
|
Well I’ve done new a route here or there also that I’ve thought was a piece of sh-it when we finished. I thought why the hell did we even come here to do this dumb ass thing. I’ve done other peoples routes that I thought were a total; piece of sh-it. I’ve told people who put up a certain route and asked me what I thought and told them it’s a piece of sh-it.
That was my opinion about the route not about them.
Is there a case of mistaken identity here? Now I could do a route and Russ will tell me my route sucks and is a total piece of sh-it, and It wouldn’t faze me the slightest why should it? I’ve done routes that I’ve thought where great and other people told me it was a piece of sh-it.
The route and the person are two different identities.
Someone is becoming one?
|
|
TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
|
|
This one is tenacious. So I guess it has never been repeated. Which I suppose means nobody has ever done it in a day. But somebody cares about it, or this thread would have died. But who the hell is keepin' score anyway. I suppose the FA's must have liked the route, or been impressed with themselves. Or scared too shtless to do it again. On the other hand, if it was done in Warren's day and nobody has raised the style since then ... Guess that speaks for itself, regardless of what any individuals might think.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
I guess I'm baffled about what is it these guys really want?
Do they want us to believe it was in fact done in good style?
--Because it seems with hooking standards set by people like Grossman in the same era without ever using a hammer and chisel, that is difficult.
Do they want us to say it was classic natural line?
--Because with 145 bolts for 13 pitches, that comes out to about 11 bolts per pitch, exceeding even Harding's Wall of the Early Morning Light of some 300 bolts for 30 pitches, or 10 bolts per pitch (course, Harding didn't give a damn what anybody thought, that's why we all loved him as a hero).
Do they really want us to believe it was purely for the personal quest when they write a book calling the route a "World Record" in its title?
Do they want us to collectively live the sins of people who perpertrated offenses toward them back in 1982?
Do they just want to lash out at anyone who doesn't praise them as the almighty?
I just can't figure out what they actually want.
Not that I really give a flying rat's ass anyway.
|
|
YVParkBum
climber
Las Vegas
|
|
Very interestng. Back in the day I was at that meeting too and in the park when all this sh#t went down. Your biggest detractors are not even here and trying to roast the Duce and Fishy for all your problems is way off dude. As I remember there were other guys yelling and going off the deep end over your route and it was not those two or Werner doing any of the crazy stuff that you are saying here. Me thinks you have the Russells mixed up, and i have not seen any of your other foes chime in on the subject yet in this forum. I wonder why they are all hiding as i know a few of them are on this forum and laying low. After all Ive been through the last 20 years i dont really give a sh#t either. bye.
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
Werner,
That's the most intelligent reply I have read during this entire thread. Time to put this baby to rest,
Jack
|
|
darod
Trad climber
New York
|
|
"Well I’ve done new a route here or there also that I’ve thought was a piece of sh-it when we finished. I thought why the hell did we even come here to do this dumb ass thing. I’ve done other peoples routes that I thought were a total; piece of sh-it. I’ve told people who put up a certain route and asked me what I thought and told them it’s a piece of sh-it.
That was my opinion about the route not about them.
Is there a case of mistaken identity here? Now I could do a route and Russ will tell me my route sucks and is a total piece of sh-it, and It wouldn’t faze me the slightest why should it? I’ve done routes that I’ve thought where great and other people told me it was a piece of sh-it.
The route and the person are two different identities.
Someone is becoming one? "
Werner, I couldn't agree more with your point about "two different identities" here, but there's a huge difference, IMHO of course, between climbing a route and thinking is a piece of sh#t, and just "thinking" is a POS, but have never been on it.
Any thoughts on that specifically?
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
|
|
Hey Darod, here are some thoughts on it:
I will think a route is a piece-of-shit without doing it by applying these criteria:
Location: do I like where the route is located?
Style of Ascent: is it a botch job or done in good style?
Type of climbing: Steep and with features or slabby and devoid of features?
Rock quality: Good rock or bad rock?
Who put it up: Track record of FA guys.
I apply this to all kinds of routes in lots of locations, not just El Cap. Many the time I've gone to a route, looked up at a hanging garden of choss and said "man, this is a piece-of-shit". Of course some people may love the hanging garden of choss and have an entirely different opinion. But IN MY OPINION it is a POS. Neat huh?
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
|
|
"I wonder why they are all hiding as i know a few of them are on this forum and laying low"
Very, very interesting...
LOL!!
Come on man, give us some names.
Sounds like they deserve to be outed.
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
|
|
Duece4 and Fish can act dumb about what these guys want, but it isn't hard to figure out. They want the condecending, "I'm-part-of the-in-crowd-and you're-not-so-I'm-better-than-you-attitude" to stop. The first ascentionists are human. They're imperfect and their efforts were imperfect. But what they did was no worse (and no better) than many things the Yosemite Valley "in crowd" of the time did. (Really, shitting on someones gear, what IQ did that require of whoever did it?) They want the attitude that they're inherently your inferior to stop. This doesn't seem unreasonable. If you really had wanted closure you could have simply posted: "I disagree with you and I always have and will." Pretty simple. Instead you "sign off" by pointing up again that the fact that you've listened to their comments at all is a gift to them. Trying to establish some superiority in a second grade playground style that is easy to see through. Argue clean guys, or fight nasty but in the open. Either way, knock of the arrogance that assumes a superiority that just ain't there.
|
|
darod
Trad climber
New York
|
|
Russ, as you've said earlier, that's your opinion, and that's all. You have a criteria for judging routes without climbing them, fine by me too. IMO, you're probably right on many occasions, but maybe in others you just might be missing out, but hey, that's you. I grew up climbing in the central Andes, where the rock (if we can call it that) is a real piece of sh#t, so for me, everything granite is excellent quality; so some of the concepts you use might have very different meanings for differente people I guess is what I'm trying to say here. Very subjective.
Anyway, my question was really directed to Werner, since he said he climbs routes before judging them good or bad (which in my opinion makes more sense).
Cheers,
Darod.
|
|
the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
|
|
"They want the condecending, "I'm-part-of the-in-crowd-and you're-not-so-I'm-better-than-you-attitude" to stop."
It's probably even simpler than that. I don't read that they're trying to say that they are as good or better than anybody else, although they are using comparisons to defend what they did.
I think mainly they just want to clear up the mistruths (rivet ladder, streaks of feces, etc.). I can't blame them. Unfortuneatly when you come of as confrontational the content your words are usually lost.
I think the title of the book does indicate the target audience:
Wings of Steel: A Climber's Perspective of the Christian Life, and the Story of a World Record 39 Continuous Days and Nights on the Side of El Capitan
And questioning the style is a reflection of the climbers not just the route.
I'm curious to what people think what was bad about the style? Edit: I guess beyond the number of holes, enhanced hooks, forced line, time spent on wall? Which it seems wouldn't be known until they got down and reported it (I guess forced line could be claimed from the start).
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Was the poop pre-packaged and carried in by some poor sot?
Let us know!