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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 1, 2005 - 05:05pm PT
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Continuation of the original thread:
Please continue post here as the original thread is getting as big as El Captain. Thank you
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"I think I read this entire thread (which takes way to long to load now), and up until that post I don't think anyone mentioned shitting on ropes."
It's there.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I've been refered to this thread on another that was focused on me but I can't get half the posts before my dial up seizes.
Could it be divided?
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Richard or Mark, did you use any other type of hooks for the slab other than the narrow Leeper?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Darnell, I think that all but three hook placements were Leeper hooks, with a very small number of those being broads. So, the vast majority of the hook placements were Leeper narrows. Now and then an edge was flat enough for a broad, which, of course, distributes the forces better, but most of the edges were too irregular for a broad. The, I think, three other hook placements were Chouinards on larger ledges. Mark can correct me if necessary, but that's how I remember it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Here are the passages from Yosemite Climber (p.86) that I had been talking about earlier. These are both from Bill Westbay, discussing the FA of Pacific Ocean Wall.
Discussing the contents of his lead rack, he says, "It also includes some extras we'd found necessary on big wall routes: a chisel for cleaning out incipient grooves..."
Regarding prepping the first placement of his first A5 lead on the route, "a No. 2 copperhead pasted in a two-inch corner," he states, "weather-worn flakes are cleaned with the chisel."
"Enhancing to bring the climb down to [their] level"??? Is "enchancing" always a matter of "bringing down"?
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2005 - 01:49am PT
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Richard & Mark
I humbly suggest you go on the offense and steer away from defense. You’ve done this climb and its history and stands as testimonial to your hard work. Let it stand. Some day someone will do it and then it will resolve itself, either positively or negatively or both combined. You will now have to let the route speak for itself. Ironic?….What will El Cap say? There is not much else for you to do. Stand proud that you climbed to the best of your abilities and that’s that. The past can not be changed, but the future will hold what you deserve. The truth will always reveal itself eventually. You will not be able to force it one way or other, and I know you are not trying to do that.
Let it go and go forward to the future lessons that await you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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All in all these WoS threads have been the best 'political' discussion of all - old school Yosemite politics. Very enlightening for those of us that were staying entertained by our own antics on lesser stone elsewhere at the time...
[Werner, if El Cap or any other rock could think I can't help but suspect there would probably be a lot of talk among them about 'stone fleas'...]
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2005 - 02:06am PT
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healyje
Can't you see it is none other than a reflection of ourselves.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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You should have named the route:
"Ropes of Shit"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"[werner:] healyje - Can't you see it is none other than a reflection of ourselves.
Of course I can, and what a perfect mirror it is! We make our passages across the beast as best we can. Sometimes we bite, sting, and cause the occasional conniption, but what a patient host - the only complaints to be heard from our stoic beast [of burden] are from the fleas themselves...
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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"You’ve done this climb and its history and stands as testimonial to your hard work. Let it stand. Some day someone will do it and then it will resolve itself, either positively or negatively or both combined. You will now have to let the route speak for itself. Ironic?….What will El Cap say? There is not much else for you to do. Stand proud that you climbed to the best of your abilities and that’s that. The past can not be changed, but the future will hold what you deserve. The truth will always reveal itself eventually."-
This post says it all, not only concerning W o S, but about who Werner is as a person. I hope to meet you some day Werner and share a beer - bravo!!
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jeff benowitz
climber
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So how many posters here have put up two new el cap routes? Or willing to confess to such in a public forum(see below)?
-------------------------------------------------------
To start with we all know that aid climbing is dead(and werner doesn't drink beer), and that if we could free-climb as hard as tommy we'd rather be caught riding a moped(obsure joke reference) than standing in aiders. That said.
Bringing up others actions to justify one's own is not and has never been an excuse for what we do-this type of thinking has led to countless wars. By mentioning what happened on the po wall or the sea of dreams does not in anyway increase the style of your ascent. Why not mention that the salthe was done with 8 bolts, that messner never placed a bolt in his life if others actions are to be used. On the subject of self-promotion-you made a topo and put it out "in the community." This by defintion is self-promotion. Keep in my mind that the Ultimate Solo is the one that you don't tell anyone about. I won't even get into the writing a book about a climb is self-promotion argument.
That said, someone repeating your route will not end the controversy, on part because there is no "real" controversy(besides the fact that you were wronged when you were putting the route up). If the second ascent says it was easy, it might be hard, if they say it was hard it maybe easy, if they say it sucked, it might be awsome, etc. These are all subjective(hope thats the right word)descriptions up to personal preference. I think the prowl on the column is a drill up-lots of bolts for such a short route, but thats my opionion and not very relevant.
Style and ethics are for those that tell others about their ascents. If you climbed a new route on watkins, solo, and did the whole route using drilled bathooks and didn't tell a soul, no one would care. (for you werner-)Well okay the rock may care, but that is an unfalse-afiable discussion. That is I can't prove that the rock thinks and I can't prove the rock doesn't think so not much point and going around the ring with that one. On that note, remember the year of the flood, when the park was closed, but the weather was good? Did anyone hear the tap, tap going up near abstract expressionist? Oh yeah the daily buzz of heli-copters and the pounding of the falls must have blocked out the sound of the man in black heading up through the black rock....wearing a black hat, carrying a black drill bit, tap, tap, tap...I think it was a guy named walt, or was it warren, oh I think it might have been the guy who put installed the rappel route for the nose, you know that old crazy guy, or maybe it was...makes your skin crawl, makes ya want to go look for the holes yourself-they start 200 feet up to the left(could have been to the right, hard saying cause it was in the dark dyslectic few days)-or you can let it rest and go do the el cap lay back-the one in the meadow-and enjoy the view...
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner: "… history … stands as testimonial …. Some day someone will do it and then it will resolve itself …. You will now have to let the route speak for itself. …What will El Cap say? … The truth will always reveal itself eventually."
Ben’s reflection to Werner: “This post says it all, not only concerning W o S, but about who Werner is as a person. I hope to meet you some day Werner and share a beer - bravo!!”
Ben, truth is no more of an animate object than El Cap, something inherently unable to promote itself. Sometimes we find truth by investigation or accident, but most often truth is revealed because someone makes the decision to make it known. Truth doesn’t just happen because of some cosmic law of revelation, it happens when self-aware beings choose to advance it. When those around us broadcast error or neglect to correct error when it comes into their domain, it makes it hard if not impossible for us to know truth. This thread was spawned last May and before going dormant had about 30 posts in which about the only truth was who did the climb, that it caused a big stir, and that it happened on El Cap. However, posts also included, “I heard the team drilled their way up the thing then chopped the bolts while cleaning,” “There was a streak of feces and trash 200 meters long below their hangin' bivy camp,” and “Drilling 150' of bat hooks up a blank face,” just to cite some choice quotes. Werner posted six times but never saw fit to address any of the outrageous statements which he knew were false because he was there when Wings of Steel went up. Instead of saying, “Bad climb, in my opinion, but x, y, and z are bogus rumors,” he chose to remain silent on all but what he wanted to discuss. No, I don’t believe “truth” is destined to come out. It comes out when we individually make a commitment to bring it forward. Werner wasn’t obligated to correct the erroneous posts, but I hope you can understand if I’m not enthusiastically behind your assessment “This post says it all … about who you [Werner] are as a person … bravo!!”
I’ve tried to wink at this “What would El Cap think?” stuff but it just keeps resurfacing. Before we can say what El Cap would think, we need to personify El Cap. Personify with what or whom? If El Cap is Muhammad Ali, El Cap is likely to think, “Get the #*&% off me.” If El Cap is Mother Teresa, I would expect something more like, “Mark and Richard, if this climb can lead you to a deeper understanding of yourselves and your own fulfillment, please climb my Great Slab.” Personification doesn’t work here because we can do little more than project ourselves on El Cap, getting back our own reflection.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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"Werner posted six times but never saw fit to address any of the outrageous statements which he knew were false because he was there when Wings of Steel went up"
Those outragious statements were your problems. And now you are saying that I knew? How would I know? I've never climbed your route.
I'm not you're lawyer. It was for you and still is to clear up.
Angry men at the world Mark and Richard, just don't try to drag me into your sorry despair.
EL Cap will speak .......
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I like Werner, at least the persona I know through this screen...
But often when I read his posts I'm thinking to myself that he is trying way to hard with his smoke and mirrors sage advice...statements that mean everything and nothing at the ame time. For example, "In time the truth will reveal itself."
Bravo my ass, more like puke down my throat.
And as far as the avengelical dudes, I think they are trying too hard to stand up for their hook/bolt fest route as well. But it's all good, makes for interesting reading which is a refreshing change around here.
My only question:
Did you use the ropes that somebody sh#t on, or did you throw them away and buy new ones? And who sh#t on them anyway?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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After all this talk, it surely would be interesting to hear what someone like Ammon who has solid 'contemporary' skills thought of the route. It also doesn't seem all that surprising that, with regard to traffic, an all-slab route would be about as popular as an all-chimney one, i.e. not very.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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i think it's pretty damn funny that you guys have gone for decades (for whatever reasons) without managing to clear up your own FA legacy, and now all of a sudden, you think it's werner's job...
"Werner posted six times but never saw fit to address any of the outrageous statements which he knew were false because he was there when Wings of Steel went up"
my thoughts:
a) right or wrong, fair or not, it sure seems like most who were "there when Wings of Steel went up" actually share the same (poor) opinions of the route.
b) who says werner (or anyone else) even cared to determine what was true or not ("outrageous statements which he knew were false") about the route? the collective opinion of the other climbers at the time was apparently fairly low, so hardly anyone was (or is, apparently) interested in climbing it.
c) guess what, while the conversation on the whole is interesting, the FA was yours, the reputation is yours, and the legacy is yours (not werner's or anyone else's). if you want to clear it up, that job is also yours! seems you got a late start on that one, good luck, but bitching about everyone that doesn't champion your efforts, be it on the stone or on the internet, won't help your cause.
d) the other guys doing FAs at the time weren't one hit wonders, they were generally among the guys we now consider to be icons of the game. they contributed with their vision to their community, and by extension, to those who now follow. rarely were their respective legacies in yosemite lore based upon one ascent. (in the same vein, ben doesn't want to buy werner a beer because of what he posted in this one internet thread about your one magical, life changing slab route)
e) if you are truely seeking a definative resolution, maybe you'll just have to sit and sulk until more folks w/ nothing but free time get a hardon for aiding up slabs in general- who knows, the whole overhanging thing might just be a fad.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"c) ...and the legacy is yours."
It's pretty clear from this discussion that while the FA is theirs, the legacy is clearly shared by the words (and so far anonymous) deeds of everyone involved at the time. If it weren't you folks wouldn't be onto a second thread on the topic of that legacy...
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