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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Skychild: So you climbed it. Cool. Happy you found the bolts to be a benefit to the experience. (Ref Chimney photo from previous page)
Norwed: I too have climbed that route. I too found no need for bolts.
If the bolts are for the slab to the left, I would have to go check it out, but they look pretty close to the crack. I always thought it was considered "wrong" to put a bolt within reach of a protectable crack.
Ahh heck, what do I know. I'm going to get a beer.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Pretty obvious that if you can clip the bolts from the chimny then the face climb is a squeeze job. They should have thought that one through a bit better perhaps when they broke out the drill.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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weschrist you are accurate.
the bolts are within arms reach behind me.
i prefer to put my back on the lower angle wall when chimney climbing.
but the common yahoo would climb this route backwards, with their feet on the lower angle, well featured wall. if i were spun in this photo (physically at least for i was well spun mentally) then i could just whistle a merry tune and clip a bolt whenever i gawdamn pleased and never have to draw upon the courage that makes me valiant and brave....
im not really fumming, though these bolts are doomed.
for in nearly every realm, the weak are overtaking the path of substance. i cannot battle most of those domains. but i can and WILL defend my passages among the man (and woman) rearing mountains.
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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Just because I see a wallet on the street with anId does that give me right to keep it? It's a matter of ethics. Would I chop it probally not but if I saw a pile of dog sh%$t on the street,would pick it up? Not unless is was from my own pooch and if it offended anyone, These bolts appear to be a turd. Get the pooper scooper.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
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I feel that it is a good thing to think of other folks climbing you route. It's called being thoughtfull and considerate of others.
Indeed. I've put up a handful of routes, and those that follow are always foremost in our minds.
But, it's also being thoughtful to not place bolts when they are not absolutely needed. Unlike the bolts placed right next to the chimney that takes pro to 2".
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Excellent point Wescrist. My way or the highway. Creative power is best, I try not to worry what other people do, however i like the idea of adjusting to the environment rather than changing things to suit my tastes, it seems more natural and less forceful, something that humans need to learn, if we have any chance.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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Kudos, Norwegian, on your initiative to go out and climb the route in question. Not that I think it was required in order for your opinion to be valid, mind you- those who believe the bolts should stay would probably have that opinion now matter how you encountered them.
Chop chop. Patch patch. Donate the hangers to ASCA.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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"Imposing your ideals on others is BULLSH#T."
I agree completely, which is why it pisses me off that there are so many bolt-clippin' gym wankers out there who believe it is their god-given right to bolt anything, everything, and climb anything they want, any time they want.
It ain't all about your interests.
Edit:
"You are enforcing arbitrary rules regarding a dirty pile of rocks."
Are you sure you're a conservationist, Wes? Or have I misread you all along?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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done. apogee.
the only problem is that i have to give up one of my precious 'climbing' days to carry out this task.
but as i see it, i am preserving a sacred realm where i hope my children, and our chilren, will learn about the sharp edge of existence.
and thus better understand it.
and thus better spend it.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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in your emotional torpor,
did you fail to notice that these yahoo's
ALSO BOLTED A 5.6 CHIMNEY JUST ADJACENT TO THE ROUTE PICTURED THAT HAD PLENTY OF NATRUAL GEAR OPTIONS.
come on weschrist. there must be a line drawn. and i am drawing it.
you are doing nothing but barking.
edit,
my children and i enjoyed some slabs nearby, utilizing the top-rope achors.
these slabs as well were voraciously bolted into submission, i assume by the same.. holding my tonge... tonning down my expressions... yahoos.
at these locations, no other passage existed without bolts, save for a 60' free solo.
this realm differs from the one under inspection. the route that im bothered by is a crack, where folks can pass and leave no trace.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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"So is it okay for N to use and enjoy the routes he deems worthy but chop the bolts he doesn't agree with, without even attempting to communicate with the bolter?"
That's fair enough to ask and expect. My position is probably based more on the cumulative experience of watching crags be overly degraded under the guise of 'freedom to act on one's will', than on this specific line. It would be worth doing a bit of research on who placed them, what their rationale was, etc. before altering the rock any further.
And unless there was a very strong rationale, chop chop.
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Apogee, you are "dead on balls accurate" Just because you can doesn't mean you should, bolting that is. OTHERWISE IT'S BETTER TO REGRET SOMETHING YOU DID THEN DIDN'T DO. Life is meant to be experienced as long as you don't hurt any one or anything, rocks have feeling too and if you have a lack of respect for the rock or a climbing area's particular history you belong in the gym. Period There's Granite arch and Pipe works if you need a bolt every five feet if you have no respect, otherwise, adapt and adopt a new outlook and love will reign.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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Well done, Norwegian. This is a great summation:
"im not really fumming, though these bolts are doomed. for in nearly every realm, the weak are overtaking the path of substance."
Weschrist is way off track. He doesn't think ahead very well when he says:
"those bolts hurt NOBODY.... Imposing your ideals on others is BULLSH#T."
So, Weschrist, the bolters didn't "impose" their "ideals" on the rest of the climbing community? What they did permanently defaced the rock. Their "ideals" were imposed on other climbers and, to use your words, "the reality is" that the vast majority of other climbers think bolts next to protectable features are horrific. And don't try the "ignore the bolts" argument. I could just as well enjoy a backpacking trip while ignoring a road built into a wilderness area. It doesn't work and it's a hollow idea. Relative values: the fastest way to the bottom in everything.
Norwegian, I've never met you , but I like you already. Power to you.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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if ya pull 'em, patch 'em. but first consider the ramifications of a chop-rebolt-chop cycle- think of the children.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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Ghoulwej
I got yelled at for not putting in 5 bolts and....."NOT ASKING PERMISSION" because somebody was "SAVING" that rout for their own FA. Said person even told me he had told others they could not do it because he was saving it for himself....
Ha ha, saving the route for their own F.A. That's Ridiculous. Besides I've soloed that chimney many times as have many others long before those bolts went in. I believe Rick Sumner and friends are credited with climbing that chimney first sometime around 76, or so I've been told. First Ascent indeed!
Burntheman;
"Alas, let me ask several prominent developers in the area who happen to be friends of mine about it and see if they know what the deal is. If it is deemed that they are inappropriate for the area, I'll ask (developers) that they remove them." Salamanizer
Here you go again. Continuing with your self-righteous approach to handling community issues by talking with a small group of people to provide a solution. HAllelujah! Salamanizer Salvation
Let me first ask that you pull your head from your own ass so that you may then be able to read clearly what it is that I wrote again.
Here, let me spell it out for you. I know the people "personally" who have been putting up routes on all the boulders below Sugarloaf as well as contributed to many of the routes on the main rock over the past 30 years.
One of them may be responsible for the bolts on said route. If so I will express the concerns brought forth on this forum and find out their reasoning for bolted protection. If it is deemed by the "community at large" that they are unnecessary and unwanted, I will then make these views clear to them and would ask that they remove the bolts.
Self richeous, small group of people, community issues???
Self richeous is what you are doing by jumping to conclusions and attempting to slander me without foundation.
Small group of people are those who are responsible for placing the bolts in question. Small group yes, but the right group, no?
Community issues is what we are doing by discussing this in an open forum, using names, expressing our opinions, listening to the opinions of others and attempting to involve those who are directly responsible for the bolts in these discussions.
So my question to you is, what's the problem with that?
Much was learned from BRR on both sides of the issue and my approach here is a direct result of that.
Open dialogue, involvement from the community at large, speaking with the "developers" before action is taken.
This is the ideal approach is it not?
I have a problem with your handling of community issues. It wasn't long ago myself and lots other climbers sent you emails regarding your involvement in route destruction and THEFT OF PROPERTY at BRR. The barrage of emails from concerned climbers who constitute a large part of the community went ignored. You made hasty decisions within your elitist sect of a FEW climbers that effected the whole community. Not until several prominent climbers reached out to you did you care to enter the dialogue concerning BRR.
This is a false statement and I feel I should attempt to briefly defend myself.
Nothing went ignored. Contact was made by the developer (who until then remained willfully unknown) and dialogue began as a result. It wasn't until late in the game that any "prominent" climbers entered the dialogue with their concerns which both agreed, and disagreed with both parties involved. Their were a large number of people involved in the decision to remove bolts which your friends placed next to bomber cracks in a pristine wilderness area with a long history of traditional climbing ethics. It wasn't just a small number of "elitist" climbers as you say. That sort of activity doesn't sit well with the majority of the climbing community and it was your small group of friends who felt they were above any long standing ethical standards which then made a negative effect in the climbing community. That's not to say that our actions were the best way to go about it. But it's not fair to simply shift all the blame over this way.
It is not up to you, after only talking with a few people you respect, to make a decision concerning ANY route alteration. Again, the current routes in question are not a major concern right now. It is the broader and continuing problem of your self-righteous and elitist approach to handling community issues that effect all climbers. You are not my savior.
I absolutely agree with you that it is not up to me or a small group of my friends to make these decisions.
However, you are again jumping to conclusions and formulating your own visions of reality about how I handle these sorts of issues.
Self richeous and elitist???
By attempting to involve the developers before taking any action is self richeous and elitist? By trying to stop the vigilantism before any hasty action is taken is self richeous an elitist?
I am trying to take the very approach suggested by you and your small group of friends and all you can do is criticize me for it?
Maybe it is you who should look in the mirror and re think who is being "self richeous and elitist"?
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Sugarloaf is far from being a lonely highway Wes. It may not be Davis, but it's not in the middle of nowhere either. The last time I checked, the only pile of choss in Davis was cow doo-doo. Stay in Davis climb at the gym, get reaaal strong, maybve even 5.13 strong, after all mid 5.11 climbing is off the couch is easy. My guess is that you never put up a climb in your life, you just benefit from others hard work, no matter what style they use. You could careless, because you have no style and simply connect the dots(bolts). See ya wouldn't want to be ya' Don
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Wes, I guess I missed the part that this was about: "5 bolts on a 50' choss pile that nobody ever visits."
Sorry, I thought it was about a 60 foot high choss pile. If it's only 50 feet high, AND it's a choss pile, then it doesn't matter. Bolt it. Hell, use a power drill to create footholds.
Relative values: the quickest way to the bottom in any endeavor.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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WES-
"5 bolts on a 50' choss pile that nobody ever visits"
Then why are you wasting your breath? You have a strong aversion to the ethics that have stood in that area for years. The loaf is a nice piece of stone and the surrounding area is rarely occupied.
I have seen that chimney, and know of people who have climbed it with gear for years.
There are many people who are not on the "Taco" that have an opinion on the matter. For you to assume that author of this thread is "Alone" in his plight proves your ignorance .
The bolts are gone.
Mucci
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apogee
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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"Weschrist is making sense."
There you have it, Wes- Skipt agrees with you. Kinda makes you wanna sit back and reconsider one's position, donnit?
Edit: Skip, I'm funnin' ya. Put yer gun back in the closet.
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the stoked dane
Trad climber
colfax, ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:56pm PT
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I happened to climb this route yesterday (no, I am not involved in putting it up). I thought it was a fun chimney - about 5.8ish. I dont think that it would take gear in the top half - unless you had a big bro. I do not have any problems w the way it was bolted. I would not call it a "bolted crack".
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