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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Being a noob has little to do with sleeping in til noon while other parties are gaining on you.
It is very doable to climb the Nose in 9 days, having your portaledge set-up mid-pitch as you like. During one of the prime times for climbing the Nose, this would disturb a lot of other's climbs and I think it should be discouraged like having a permanent top rope on Bishop's terrace would be fun for some, and bad for others
PEace
Karl
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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JLP, I don't get it. Why the hate? Was that you on the route or something? Just because you can't climb hard, does that mean no one else can?
To all those criticizing me about how I should have picked another route or how I shouldn't climb in Zion, I've climbed there twice in a decade of climbing, and the first time was Tricks of the Trade, a relative obscurity compared to MB. I typically do climb routes that have fewer beginners on them, but once in a while I do have the itch to climb something that beginners are on. All I'm asking is for fellow climbers to not be inconsiderate.
Could I have picked another weekend? No. I work full time, while attending school full time. To say the least, my time is limited. I'd love to go there at an "off" time, but I can't even get a single day off approved at the temp/contract job I've got right now. I work with what I have.
I'm not saying that n00bs shouldn't be on the wall. I'm just saying if they're going to sit around for 4 hours of daylight not getting ready to climb, they can sit a little longer to let a significantly faster team pass. I checked the time stamp on my picture of them on the ledge. It was still set up at 2:22pm. That's the majority of the day. I'm just saying don't be inconsiderate. If they were either mildly considerate or mildly competent I could have passed or followed them to the top. Unfortunately, they were neither.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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I got no problem with nOObs on something like Moonlight.
The problem I have stems more from them sitting around instead of working to make steady upward progress. If they can't move that fast, big deal. We all gotta learn the systems and dial it in. But just hanging out on a portaledge jamming up one of the most popular walls in Zion? That's just selfish, IMO.
If they were sitting around, even another nOOb party could have come up below and maybe were trying to fix and fire, but end up having to spend a cold night in slings because someone was having a wall party instead of climbing. Bad form.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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And your random illogical sniping that contributes nothing makes you look like.....?
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Josh, did you actually speak with the guys? Maybe they thought you were a jerk. Maybe they were foreign? You never really know. It sounds like you might have already been pissed by the time you got to them.....maybe they were responding a bit to your vibe. Did you try a "hey guys, whats up....killer route eh? Hey wer are trying to motor here. You guys are in wall mode. Could we find a way to sneak by even though you guys got up here first."
i did that on royal arches last season. We passed then motored. Only to epic on the rappels. The brits we passed six hours ago saved our bacon with an extra rope... In the dark! We bought beers and pizza for THEM that night. Its all about your attitude when making the pass.
What was your bady language when you made it up to them? Honey or vinegar?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Still all this talk of passing, free vs aid, attitude.
How about knocking off a few dozen practice aid climbs first to get your systems down?
There are many short free crack climbs right in Zion that could serve for clean aid practice, but nobody has any patience any more. They all want to be instant wall climbers.
Why not go to the practice cliffs or up by the tunnel or down low in the small wingate band?
With hundreds of long clean lines in Zion Moonlight, Touchstone, Space Shot and Prodigal should be showpieces where, whether or not done free, displays of COMPETENCE, control, and a light touch (including no hauling) are upheld as goal.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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On the way up, we were just moving moving moving and saw their legs hanging over the side of the ledge not getting ready. We were prepared to either follow behind them to the top, or pass if there was an opportunity. We were laughing and cracking jokes. Body language wasn't an issue since they had a ledge between us and we couldn't see them. I figured once we got up under them we could start a passing conversation. They started climbing right before the two of us were under them making passing impossible at that time. We spoke with them briefly, but not even about passing since it wasn't an option with the leader aiding above. We patiently hung at the hanging belay for ~1.5 hours laughing, cracking jokes, and at some point I leaned back and saw the guy leading above and he was only about 60' up the pitch and I called it. We bailed. We were going into the shade, would have to stay at the hanging belay for another 1.5 hours or so, and the decision was made for us... I guess we could have started yelling far from below, but I tought it would be friendlier to just talk to them from closer. By then, with the choices those guys made, it was too late for us to climb the route.
I've passed before. I stay friendly. I tell them how I plan to pass, tell them how much time I think it might delay them and ask if that's alright.
Ron, the other thing that is getting lost in the discussion is that 100% of the aid climbers my friend and I saw on the route were on it the day after rain. One of the parties may have been on it the day it rained. It's too bad that people can't self regulate.
Josh
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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I think you should have said something to them about climbing wet sandstone and about communicating with other parties and considering letting people pass. Or you could go all European on their asses and clip their gear as you climb over their backs.
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WBraun
climber
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You could go all European on their asses and clip their gear as you climb over their backs.
That's what I do .....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Ron - I'm not seeing the conservation/competence thing ever working.
Even at Hueco Tanks, the current gold standard (?) for regulation, conservation and bureaucracy, the popular boulders are still getting hit non-stop all day long.
The only place I'm aware of where an attempt at filtering out the noobs is made is Denali - still the king of AK noob accidents. I'm not seeing that route as very effective, either.
The best case I see is that wear and tear on a route like Moonlight just occurs through - what - slightly better climbers using the same gear and dragging the same bags behind them at the same or higher frequency?
Look at what happened to the Nose after everyone learned how to short fix – maybe 2-3x the daily traffic in the high season? How many 1 day parties could Moonlight handle?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I am shocked, shocked!, to see people defending people clogging/hauling/ camping on a nine pitch free climb. What if people did that on Astroman? Would you say free climbers should stay away from the noob routes?
Just because someone puts in the work to climb higher grades doesn't mean they are jerks for trying to climb hard routes.
I haven't been to Zion in a long time, but apparently the haulbag marks are a problem? If so, it seems unacceptable to haul on routes that don't need to be hauled. It's no different than nailing on routes that don't need to be nailed.
I'm all for noobs, and am highly supportive of noob behavior. At the same time, we don't need to the give the sport away to them.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I am shocked, shocked!, to see people defending people clogging/hauling/ camping on a nine pitch free climb.
I am shocked to see people defending climbing up someone's *ss who happened to be there FIRST, on a free/AID route.
N00bs are n00bs, they have to learn somewhere.
Since when is being first and being slow against the rules?
Clearly, the 5.12 guys should come back another time, or pick another route.
They're so experienced, but didn't have enough sense to not go up under these guys?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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If Moonlight had an analog to the Harding Slot and the 10R pitch, we wouldn't be here talking about this. The "problem" is the 5.8 C1.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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I was in Zion on the Friday that is being discussed arriving about midday. It didn't rain and I checked at Park HQ about any rainfall earlier in the day and I was told that there were only a few drops.
On Saturday morning the portaledge was at the anchors at the top of pitch 4. It wasn't half way up a pitch. I suspect they choose to stay there since the weathers looked threatening and that spot has natural shelter. Fortunately it didn't rain overnight and Saturday thru Monday were nice days.
They were probably just inexperienced and slow. We have all been there at some stage.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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Clarification:
The aid climbing and the free climbing have different belays that suit the style of climbing better. They were in the middle of the crux free pitch, but on a bolted aid anchor.
The weather report on Thursday said that it rained Thursday. I said that it rained the day before Friday, not on Friday.
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blr
climber
socal
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This thread is rife with straw man arguments. People get so defensive when they perceive someone "infringing on their noob rights" that they seem to lose all reasoning ability.
Other people are so idealistic that they can't even recognize the reality of what actually goes on.
If everybody, from noobs to hot-shot climbers, were a little thoughtful and considerate, this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion.
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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The pitch above is straight forward C1 on a gear eating crack and only 100'. Well, the leader took about 2.5 hours on the pitch (or more?), When we returned Sunday, they were still on route. Yes folks, that's day 3 on what supertopo lists as the easiest wall in Zion which clocks in at around 8-9 aid pitches.
I can't help it... this stuff stinks! Personally, when I hear comments like this from climbers, I get pissed.
One of the aspects I love about climbing, is the FREEDOM to choose how YOU would climb something, and the experiences doing so.
I guess I get pissed, because attitudes like this directly threaten this FREEDOM.
Those guys were having their adventure. That's it. That's all.
Josh, you're sure baddass man, no doubt about that, eh?
That is, compared to others.
We're all just climbing dude.
And talking about it...
Rant over, thanks for listening.
Peace
A.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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"Well then you got hosed.
Deal with it and quit whining.
Sh#t happens."
Well said sir.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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You know, i've had a few days to think on this, because I am a true "noob" climber. I like to take it easy on walls, I leave the stress for free climbing. When I did the leaning Tower, got up to awahnee in 5 hours than lounged for a day, didn't do sh!t. then went up to the top the next day and lounged some more. Party behind me was pissed I was going slow on the pitch below awahnee, they were gonna FIRE wet denim, ended up getting snail eyed at the ledge and bailed. I finished that sh!t out, even tho it scared the hell outta me.
If you haven't picked up Chris macs new zion book, you should. Dozens and Dozens of routes there. You know I've never actually climbed Double Cross? Every time i've been in josh there's been someone on it, so i've never bothered. Thats cool with me.
I agree that it was unfortunate that they didn't anticipate you coming up and let you pass, but they didn't have to. I come from the Batso school of climbing. If I want to spend four days aiding up serenity crack, who cares? No one owns the rock. No matter how horrible or egregious their laziness is... there are literally thousands of routes to do, and you could see their portaledge from the ground. You climbed expecting them to let you pass.
I would let you pass, homey, because I am down w/that. But the party before me on leaning tower climbed during a "free" ascent and had fixed lines hanging in their route the whole way. is that cool? I wouldn't do it, but the guys that freed it chose to, so its all good. If I saw the fixed lines when i approached, i would have done a different route.
I dunno, I'm not bagging on you at all, just saying where I come from and my thoughts on it. I suck hard at climbing, and i watch these guys like Renan Ozturk and Ceder Wright climb these awesome lines like "The Monkeys Always Send" and think, if I could climb that hard, I would be on those routes. How sick would it be to grab the second ascent of some of those super modern routes? Even back at home, in josh or the idyllwild area, I always bug the locals about new routes they do and try to get after 'em, to hop on stuff that Todd gordon is putting up out north, or Ben shackelford put up in idy, or kelly. Seems more exciting than bagging the 139,309th ascent of open book, which sounds like it would be as hard for me to do as for you to climb moonlight.
Thats all... there's just a lot of stuff, and we should do what we want on these routes. Hauling and damaging them aside, the rest of us could just go on our own way and do our own thing.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I am a noob mtn biker, team UCLA ran me off the trail. They told my friend he was a pussy for riding the brakes. They're a holes, who should not have been bombing a well known noob trail.
What trail was that? Backbone? Sullivan Cyn?
BTW, I get the analogy. After blowing out my knee twice, I ride a fair bit but I'm a chickensh@t on descents since I'm over the whole getting injured for my sport thing. But at least you were riding, not taking a GU break in the middle of the trail.
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