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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 8, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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I headed out to Zion last weekend for a little fun on Moonlight Buttress. I checked the weather before I left, and saw rain predicted for Thursday. My friend and I were planning on driving out after work on Thurday, and climbing on Friday. Due to the light rain forecast, we decided to let the soft sandstone dry for a day before getting on route. We left Friday morning, and rolled in that afternoon to check out the route. When we got there, we saw not one but two parties on the wall the day after light rain. I'm not an expert, but I've been told to wait a day after the rain before climbing on soft sandstone.
My buddy and I figured that since they both appeared to be getting halfway up the route, we could start on Saturday and they would be out of the way by the time we reached them. We got a permit and an early start and headed for the wall. One of the aid parties was bivied in the middle of the crux lieback pitch hanging on a portaledge which kind of surprised us. I thought that the typical style out there was "fix and fire" since the walls were so short. Oh well, we figured we would try to pass at a ledge on the upper pitches, or at the worst be stuck behind them as they slogged their way up the route and we'd top out later in the day.
Well, we started climbing and punched out a few pitches. The sun hit the wall and the dihedral came into view again. There they were still, sitting on the portaledge feet dangling over the side, no preparation to lead, nothing. We figure that sucks, we'll have to pass on the beautiful clean corner while free climbing and miss climbing much of that pitch, but oh well. However, that wasn't to be, either. We lead two more pitches, and around 11:30 right about when I started leading the pitch below them, their leader started out making passing a nightmare and essentially impossible. We figured f*#k it, we'll try to figure something out, climbed to the belay under them and waited patiently. The pitch above is straight forward C1 on a gear eating crack and only 100'. Well, the leader took about 2.5 hours on the pitch (or more?), and sometime after 1pm my partner and I bailed having been at that hanging belay for 1.5 hours. At 2pm the ledge was still set up in its original position from the night before. I think that is pretty uncool to say the least....
We figured we'd be screwed because another aid team was starting up the route with a haulbag and portaledge, but luckily they were completely incompetent, got a late start, got off route immediately on pitch 2, and bailed. That meant that hopefully the route would be empty for our Sunday attempt, and no one would have a ledge blocking the way again.
When we returned Sunday, they were still on route. Yes folks, that's day 3 on what supertopo lists as the easiest wall in Zion which clocks in at around 8-9 aid pitches. Luckily, they bailed and weren't in our way later that day. We finished the route in about 9-10 hours and were back in San Diego around 1:30am.
My buddy was going to head to Red Rocks Mon-Wed with his wife, but major rain swept through. Instead of climbing on the potentially compromised sandstone there, he decided that he liked Zion so much he'd head back out there with his wife and just hike. What does he find the day after a very heavy rain? That's right, aid climbers on Moonlight Buttress.
In summary, I'd like to make the follwing observations:
1. Stay off of standstone the day after it rains. We did, and other people do too. It's a community resource, let's not impose the "tragedy of the commons" on our resources, especially ones as amazing as Moonlight Buttress.
2. If you're going to do an ultra classic route, don't dink around hanging out half the day before starting to climb. There are other parties who would also like to do the route. Yes, you got there first and sometimes it's fun to take your time, but don't do it when other people are going to be impacted. That makes you an inconsiderate prick.
3. Zion walls are short. Fix and fire seems like a great strategy, and bringing a full haulbag and portaledge WILL slow you down significantly. if those guys had done used that strategy, they probably would have been successful. Not only will it facilitate other parties who want to climb the route, but it will probably increase your chance of success. If you wnat to do a wall with a ledge and take your time Pass the Pitons Pete style then pick an obscurity.
4. If you're going to sit around chatting blocking the most popular bigwall in a national park, don't wait until a party moving 8 times faster than you is 20 minutes away before starting to climb. Seriously, that's just inconsiderate beyond belief. Let them blow past, then you can continue dragging your feet at will (provided there aren't any other parties you're screwing below).
Josh
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snakefoot
climber
cali
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this is turning into a golf scene
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Dingus,
Like I said, they got there first, but they're still inconsiderate pricks...
When I was a n00b I made sure to let faster parties pass because I'm NOT an inconsiderate prick.
Josh
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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It's such a tough balance. People are there first and it's a beginner trade wall so you kind of have to expect a certain level of incompetence. At the same time I've run into many parties who were new or newish and going very slowly but also were super defensive about it and not wanting to let us pass. If you're going slow just be honest about it. Being a defensive prick because your ego can't handle that people are going faster than you and making everyone else suffer just makes you look bad. Going slowly doesn't.
Also, show up prepared. "Just figuring it out as you go" is a shitty way to learn to climb if you're on a busy route. I wonder how many parties have been defeated at Dinner Ledge because some jackass in front of them didn't practice jugging on overhangs and spent 3 hours stuck under the Kor Roof. I went up there once to do a route quickly and there were literally 3 parties (all doing different routes) stuck behind one guy trying to clean the roof. He refused to accept any kind of help for nearly 2 hours. Finally he let me coach him and he finished the pitch in less than 10 minutes. By that time it was too late in the day and most of us had to bail anyway.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Bummer.
2. If you're going to do an ultra classic route, don't dink around hanging out half the day before starting to climb. There are other parties who would also like to do the route. Yes, you got there first and sometimes it's fun to take your time, but don't do it when other people are going to be impacted. That makes you an inconsiderate prick.
Maybe you should have picked a different route when you saw them there? I agree with you that they seem to be pricks, but they could just be ignorant? Whatever the case. Bummer.
Prod.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I don't know... Moonlight is now becoming a highly sought after free line. Is there another climb which sees such a mix of free and aid action?
I feel like we're just in a transition period before aiding moonlight becomes bad form, as it sees more and more free ascents. Especially for a wall that goes fix and fire, the wall camping seems unnecessary.
And I'm sad to say I think we will always have the wet sandstone climbers, everyone's vacation is just so critical to them they're willing to take it out on the resource.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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If ignorance is the excuse, then my post is an attempt to educate.
:)
Josh
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Posted before on another clogging routes thread, but whatev..
We were on Mescalito and had the route to ourselves. However, in a cruel twist of fate, we encountered another party at the single shared belay (where Wall of the Early Morning Light crosses). They were German or Austrian or Swiss or something, one really friendly young guy and a surly older gent. They got there first and took up all available space at the anchors.
No biggie, it was late in the day so I decided to fix the rope, rap and clean the pitch while my pard set up the ledge and dug out the salami. I asked if I could fix my rope to a couple of bolts. Nope. C'mon man, it's no big deal. Nope. Dude, there's really not much for me to work with for a natural anchor. Nope. The friendly one tried to persuade grumpy to give up a little anchor space. Grumpy stuck to his guns. I eke out an anchor and rapped/cleaned.
We all go to bed and Grumpy snores all night. Then they take their sweet azz time getting going the next day while we cooled our heels waiting to get by. I mean like an 11:00 a.m. departure. They do one more pitch of WEML and abrubtly determine to bail. They spend one more night within ear shot of us and Grumpy again snores all night.
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JeffJ
climber
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another way to characterize Josh's initial post :
do those with a 90 IQ have the same right to life as those with a 140 IQ ?
is elitism the downfall or the saving grace of humanity ?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Dingus,
Like I said, they got there first, but they're still inconsiderate pricks...
When I was a n00b I made sure to let faster parties pass because I'm NOT an inconsiderate prick.
Josh
Amen Josh.
The difference between considerate and inconsiderate often lies in how you behave with relation to the reasonable expectation of others. They should have just stayed out of the way and let you through if they were going to just pound one off on the ledge for most of the day.
I wouldn't expect that this type of situation is going away any time soon. Seems to be a part of the whole "EXTREEEEME" culture thing these days.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Elitism sucks, but the larger issue of conservation comes into play.
Gumbies phuck up placements. They cause podding on the first pitch wasting routes' potential lives. Dragging bags up Vs cause "trails" that will get the rocks closed to us,... unneccesarily.
It is just downright rude and inconsiderate to "learn" wall climbing on popular routes.
Ever hear of paying one's dues?
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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man, that sucks and so goes the bummer side of wall climbing. Esp. on a trade route. Sorry you ran into that but I've found being overly communicative AND kind can sometime yield a better outcome. Still though, not always and sometimes people have no compromise.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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behave with relation to the reasonable expectation of others.
yup steel monkey, spot on.
It begs the question of whether one could do a bivy on Astroman and be in the way of free climbers. I think so, but if they didn't let them by, and defended that position thru violence, then they should be ostracized. If they remove your gear, then that's attempted murder if you fall and die, or at least gross negligence. Make them aware of the impact of not letting you clip in. I had one german guide on half dome touch me and damn near knock me off a run out pitch on snake dike. Again, it's all about how you behave, and how it is worked out. Never start out with being a jack ass is key.
As a side point, Josh, those weren't observations, but normative prescriptions. Not that it matters.
Nice job on the send despite the rubes!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Also, that same weekend there was a bunch of waterbottles left at the base of moonlight. If you are going to leave water bottles at the bottom of the climb, please date them or leave a message.
Otherwise it is trash.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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DMT = n00b
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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It's not elitism, it's competence.
The 'I was here first' argument goes only so far. I think etiquette has its place. As a result, if you're up there, 'figuring it out as you go', you have a duty (that's right I said a DUTY) to be considerate to other climbers who can pass quickly and conveniently.
While I know lots of older climbers have stories about taking a long time on a particular route, things are different now. Climbing has become much more popular and resources have become more limited if you will. While we don't have a right to expect people to be able to blast up stuff, it's not impolite to have the expectation that they're going to have a clue as to what they're doing and, if not, let others who do climb through. You would hope for the same in the reverse situation. Your right to climb does not give you the right to prevent others from doing so.
And BTW, don't get me started on the Euros.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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I agree
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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John Mac,
About the water bottles, that was ridiculous. Is it really necessary to leave a pile of water bottles at the base of a climb 15-20 minutes from the road? I couldn't for the life of me figure out the practical purpose of caching water at the base of that route.
"Normative Prescription" #5:
Pack it in, pack it out. This one is simple and universal.
Josh
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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In the early 90's while training for the NIAD I climbed the Scenic Cruise in the Black. My 15 year old pardners biggest climbe before that was the Bastille Crack so we were not beating any records. I let a faster pair pass as I hung forever at a hanging belay, no big deal.
The next month while on the Nose, my pardner and I passed a team that had done one pitch above Camp V (?) while we had climbed what 20 pitches to get there in one day? Luckily those guys were cool with passing.
Sometimes you get passsed and sometiems you pass. Yes Josh, sounds like those guys were pricks. A little consideration from all parties goes a long ways.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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"I feel like we're just in a transition period before aiding moonlight becomes bad form, as it sees more and more free ascents. Especially for a wall that goes fix and fire, the wall camping seems unnecessary."
Aid climbing (clean) and/or spending a night on Moonlight in a ledge will never be bad form to me. Also, I will never agree that people should not climb it unless they can free it.
That being said, if I was going significantly slower than someone behind me, I would make it as easy as possible for them to pass me and offer them a beer when they went by.
Cheers,
Brad
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