Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Tfish
Sport climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
|
Jun 14, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
|
I checked out the Spring Crag this weekend, it's a really cool spot to try out. Only 4 routes but it's in a nice quite area.
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jun 14, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
|
Tfish, Is Spring Crag the one just up past the start to the Little Jimmy trailhead there at the gap?
|
|
Tfish
Sport climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2010 - 11:41am PT
|
Im not sure where little Jimmy is, I've hurd of it and know its kinda around there but, I think its before it. Its about a half mile East of Islip Saddle (Where Hwy 39 from Azusa hits the Crest).
|
|
Tfish
Sport climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
|
|
|
joeblow
climber
|
|
|
Aug 27, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
|
Well, you're just about out of time to do something. The FS is proposing a additional three year closure, so they can sit on their thumbs doing nothing.
I only pasted the title and summary pages, of a just released 29 page, USFS EA Report on Williamson.
United States
Department of
Agriculture
Forest
Service
August 2010
Environmental Assessment
Williamson Rock Critical Habitat Closure
Santa Clara-Mojave Rivers Ranger District, Angeles National Forest
Los Angeles County, California
T. 3N, R. 9W, Section 7, & T. 3N, R. 10W, Sections 11, 12, 13, and 14
SUMMARY
The Angeles National Forest proposes to extend the existing temporary closure in the Williamson Rock vicinity. The proposed action would prolong the closure of the area to dispersed recreation for an additional three years for species monitoring.
The project area is located within the upper reaches of Little Rock Creek of the High Country area of the San Gabriel Mountains and is within the Santa Clara-Mojave Rivers Ranger District, Angeles National Forest, California. This action is needed to provide required protection for a Federally-listed endangered species, while neighboring population segments are given time to rebound from the effects of wildfire and consequent watershed emergency.
The proposed action may affect recreational use in the High Country, by prolonging the existing closure for an additional period. Williamson Rock would remain closed to dispersed recreation while neighboring portions of the Forest recover from the 2009 Station Fire. Monitoring during the closure would guide subsequent decision.
In addition to the proposed action, the Forest Service also evaluated the following alternatives:
• A No-Action Alternative, under which the existing one year species habitat closure would remain in effect until its expiration in December 2010.
• A Recreational Development Alternative, under which facilities would be constructed to route use away from Critical Biological Habitat.
• An Environmentally Preferred Alternative, under which permanent closure of the Williamson Rock vicinity to dispersed recreation would be enacted.
Based upon the effects of the alternatives, the responsible official will decide if the Forest Closure Order addressing the Critical Biological Habitat in the Williamson Rock vicinity should be extended.
|
|
RtM
Boulder climber
DHS
|
|
|
Aug 28, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
|
Hey Slater - are you really thinking about putting Williamson in your upcoming Socal Roadtripping guide?
|
|
RtM
Boulder climber
DHS
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
|
slater?
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
|
okay, pardon a long post here, but i wrote this for fattrad since he seems to think an urban jewish congressman from virginia will care about this while none of the urban jewish congressmen in l.a. seem to want to get involved.
i think the key to this is asking a few pointed questions about the frog. would appreciate feedback--it's only my version of things.
----------
friends of williamson rock has a web page. troy mayr, author of the guidebook and developer of many routes, founded that organization at the behest of the forest service. jack marshall, another well-known route developer, is one of the board members.
i have taken an interest in bypassing this organization, which seems to do nothing but "cooperate" with the forest service. i don't think the forest service is doing it right.
williamson was closed because a short distance upstream lies the habitat of about nine (yes, nine, according to the FS biologist) mountain yellow-legged frogs, an endangered species. the MYLF's range extends, at the very least, from the mountains of southern california into the mountains of oregon. it was quite common in the high country lakes of the sierra nevada. its habitat in southern california mountains is limited to five streams (last count), such as the one at williamson, which only flows for a few months of the year.
according to information i've gleaned from the internet, as well as an article published a couple years ago by national geographic magazine, the MYLF is one of many endangered frog species. its depletion has nothing to do with rock climbing. the two main factors with the MYLF appear to be stocking of trout in sierra lakes which did not have trout previously, and a fungus which affects the adult frog. climate change and pollution will also be cited as vague factors. be aware that amphibians are strangely vulnerable. the beautiful golden toad of central america disappeared in a very brief time.
i can't get a realistic picture of this species's endangerment. the creek at williamson is a very small habitat and it probably never had more than nine frogs in it. if the FS is acting logically--and i wouldn't put any money on that--it must be a very dangerously depleted species to generate this kind of concern over a remote and seemingly unimportant bit of habitat. climbing took place about 100 yards from the main frog area, which was never visited by climbers except those passing through via an alternate trail. it has never been demonstrated that the mere presence of humans would have any affect at all on this animal. there was some concern voiced about the dogs which some climbers bring, which seems to me an issue which could be dealt with fairly easily.
the FS has sat on this situation for 6 years. if you talk to them they will tell you they're "developing a plan", and there has also been talk of climbers having to raise as much as $60,000 for studies and what-not.
i don't know if you've ever climbed at williamson, but assuming you haven't, it was the prime sport-climbing area for the los angeles area and has not been replaced. the drive up there takes little more than an hour, the climbing is superb with dozens of routes on an unusual but likable variety of granite. since the closure, the williamson crowd has gravitated to echo cliff in the santa monica mountains, a second-rate place involving a 40-minute approach hike and a lot of choss on loose rhyolite. echo has developed some environmental issues of its own--my friend ben recently chopped a half dozen routes because of concerned over an endemic plant.
williamson did get a lot of use. i'd go up there every week during the summer for several years. i'd say there would be 100 or more climbers on busy days. troy and others made an effort to put a solar toilet down there, but the FS hemmed and hawed it to death. i understand that solar toilets are no longer considered the best solution. the approach to williamson is pretty much straight down from the parking area, involving a move you might consider 4th class, or a quick scree descent which the FS tried to discourage--or a long 20-minute hike through the frog habitat.
there's the gist of the issue. i doubt williamson is the key to MYLF survival. when important species get dangerously endangered they're bred in laboratories and reintroduced. probably relatively easy to do with a frog. there's a prof at one of the UC's who was cited in the national geographic article who seems to be an expert on this, but he apparently has not been involved with the FS.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
|
fats, do you climb down here? do you know williamson?
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
|
the bridge idea has been discussed before. it really doesn't get to the heart of the issue.
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
|
we can't get info on the frogs. that's the first step, the big picture on the MYLF. i don't think williamson habitat is essential to it. it was all through the sierra nevada up until a few years ago. has it become extinct there? if so, why? will so cal habitat bring the frog back? if it's that endangered, are there efforts to breed it in the laboratory and then re-introduce it into its main habitat, which is the sierra nevada?
there have never been more than a few frogs in the spring area upstream from williamson, which is the area of concern. for most of the climbing season, the creek through williamson is dry as a bone. the frogs will be estivating when its dry, hibernating through the winter, active only in the spring and into summer until it gets dry.
the gorge itself seems like a physical barrier to frog traffic. it's quite steep, mostly rock, has a waterfall and very steep sides. i brought this up to the FS biologist, but she said the froggies will still use it to cavort and play. no climber i've ever talked to has EVER seen one of these frogs. quite a ways downstream there's a dam, and below the dam, stocked trout which will gobble the little buggers up, same as stocked trout seem to have done throughout the sierra. and most of the year the damn place is dry far downstream anyway. it's hard to conceive of the frogs extending their habitat through the gorge and on downstream.
a serious dog ban should relieve all concern about those nine stupid frogs. post signs, enforce them seriously, get climbers to do some self-enforcing. we'll be serious about that if it'll bring williamson back.
if the government wants to bring the MYLF back, do what it does for every other endangered species it supposedly cares about. enlist the top experts, breed them in captivity, reintroduce them into their main habitat. there are still plenty sierra lakes without trout. but first, give us a complete report on this alleged endangerment. it has been a very widespread species.
|
|
Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
|
Good news...My buddy talked to some forest guys over by Williamson on Friday, he said they were doing some work mapping a new trail for the PCT.
Bad News...I also heard part of the problem was the bathroom situation. Only 1 bathroom at the top...And tons of climbers down below. Also sport climbers who dont have the best rep of outdoor etiquette, so you do the math.
|
|
Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
I just talked to a forest ranger and he said they don't have the man power to open up Horse Flats. Nothing is wrong with it (all the snow is melted, no damage, ect.) they just don't have enough people to open it up. Really? How hard is it to unlock a gate, drive by 1 time in the morning and collect the money from the box?
I also went to a forest meeting the other night and they have tons of volunteers that want to work on trails in the fire damage areas, but they don't have enough workers to supervise the volunteers.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
I just talked to a forest ranger and he said they don't have the man power to open up Horse Flats.
So you just park outside and walk in. Besides, if you park inside the campground they nail you for a day use fee.
|
|
Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
They have it closed at the small white gate by the Christian Camp so its a pretty far walk in. But yeah I usually park right at that gate anyways so I don't have to pay $14 for the campsite fee.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Got it. It'd be pretty mellow on a mt. bike though. Lots of good riding around there and on the nearby Silver Mocassin trail.
|
|
Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
Yeah, I've done a bunch of mtn biking around there, it's pretty epic everywhere up there. I know its not the biggest deal, it's just that the forest service has some pretty lame excuses.
|
|
rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
I was there on Saturday and the gate was open. There were several cars parked at the campground entrance. I parked at the newly remodeled trailhead at the top of the hill. Maybe the ranger meant to say the campground is closed...which it is.
|
|
Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
|
|
Nice! I went there last week on like wednesday and I chopped the lock to get in at the gate. Then there were some signs blocking the road that said closed due to fire hazard so we moved them to the side infront of bandito camp ground.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!