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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 01:39pm PT
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Lois,
It is all cynical manipulation of the population to further a certain agenda. Hitler wanted to control Europe and further his mad ideas. The present day neocons want to enrich themselves and don't care at whose expense. So they are more than willing to create any sort of pretext for war, like Goering said, in order to gain control over a valuable resource.
Unfortunately, they've put a gang of incompetents in charge of their agenda and it is blowing up in their faces.
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 19, 2005 - 01:40pm PT
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Why not North Korea?
-"Now to take over Syria, Saudi, etc."
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Oct 19, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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Gary wrote:And why do you think restructuring the middle east to what we want will work any better now than it did in 1918?
It won't.
Restructuring needs to happen here in America. Washington, DC would be the logical place to start.
Fattrad wrote: Why blame Bush when bad leaders claim to have WMD, it was just one of many reasons to take over Iraq. Now to take over Syria, Saudi, etc.
Blame got nailed on lies. Claims are one thing and the truth is another.
Read my lips...there were no WMD. Bush knew this. Your own statement about restructuring only proves that Bush and company had a agenda and it had nothing to do Saddam, WMD or terrorists.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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And why do you think restructuring the middle east to what we want will work any better now than it did in 1918?
It won't.
Bob,
Of course it won't. fattrad will never answer that question. The poor fellow has no answer, at least not that he wants to acknowledge, and will be forced to ignore it to rationalize his position.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
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so you'll take the CIA's word for it here, but not info. presented to GWB on Iraq?
No, actually, I believe the IAEA. However, the CIA never actually found any concrete evidence of recent WMDs in Iraq. Much as W and the chickenhawks really wanted them to say they had.
Saddam admitted before the war to pocessing WMD,
Well, duh, we know he had them at some point, like 15 years ago, when we sold them to him. There's still no evidence that he had them anytime in the last decade.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 02:27pm PT
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Well, duh, we know he had them at some point, like 15 years ago, when we sold them to him
If W. wanted the scoop on the Iraqi WMDs, I always wondered why he didn't just pick up the phone and ask Dad.
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Jy
Trad climber
California
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Oct 19, 2005 - 02:59pm PT
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If Saddam had WMD's before the war, then where did they go, he wasnt even able to get himself, his kids, or his money out of the country, he definitely would have done that before moving mass stockpiles of WMD's. And whether or not he had them fifteen years ago makes no difference. The evidence that these intelligence organization supposedly had was wrong and what they did have was a joke (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0313/p06s01-woiq.html); like this piece of crap Powell showed to the UN.
Its sad that people who voted for Bush need to justify their mistake by saying that we won't know whether or not he has been a good president until far in the distant future. Its obvious he hasn't. And the War on Terror, a war that will never end as one can never kill or capture "Terror" has actuall made us less safe. there have been more terrorism incidents since "The War on Terror" began than there were before, not including Iraqi terrorist violence which makes everything else pale in comparison and for which we are to blame as it was us who destabilized the entire country, opening it up to that sort of violence.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 19, 2005 - 02:59pm PT
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" I know many people love to focus on the WMD, but the big icture is that the middle east needs a complete restructuring and Iraq was the best place to start. Next Syria, then Saudi and go from there. "
"Typical liberal. Picking and choosing when convenient."
"I mean nobody has seen the nukes in N. Korea."
Fatty are you f-ing kidding me? Typical LIBERAL? Your boys had 'specific exact intelligence' about where the WMD's were...but they couldn't find any, so now its important to, you know, stay 'big picture.' No, nobody has seen the nukes, just all the evidence pointing the potential for nuclear weapons. Yes they could be totally bluffing, but Saddam wasn't even bluffing and your boys tried to play Pin the Uranium on the Dictator with him.
You and your fellas have set the bar at an insane new standard for 'picking and choosing,' so don't try to be Mr. Rational with the Looney-Tunes-Typical-Liberal.
The reality is that you don't want to be 'big picture' at all. If you were truly interested in being 'big picture' then you would look at the root causes of moderate Arab anger towards the United States, which is our interventionist foreign policy in their country and region. You would be interested in disentangling our fate from that region, not commiting our countrymen to die there and stirring the hornets nest even further. The Middle East isn't Germany in the 1930's. They aren't about to take over a continent, they can barely control their own countries. Stop giving them a reason to see us as the enemy and they will stop being such a problem for us. That is something that you of course won't do because there is a lot of money to be made off of the conflict and oil proceeds, and politicians are very good at seeing where the money is.
If you don't want to get stung then stop poking the hornet's nest, but you are a 'typical conservative' I guess. Drunk on the power of the US military and eager to use it as a club. Next Syria and Saudi Arabia and go on from there? We didn't even finish Afghanistan, Iraq has little security, high unemployment and spotty water/power service at best and you want to schedule more wars that will provoke more violence that will give you more excuses to cut programs for Americans who are more likely to be killed by floods, hurricanes, family members or highway accidents than terrorism.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:19pm PT
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Lois-
It seems like you need to read up on a lot of news from the past 4+ years. If the sides of this issue seem entrenched to you it is because you are missing out on a lot of what we have been through. I'm sure there are fairly extensive blogs and news archives that you can search through, but if you are looking for hard information on the issues the Supertopo forum is probably not the place to look. That is unless you want hard info on rivet sizes or the best way to find the start of Snake Dike.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:25pm PT
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There has to be some motivation to explain Bush's behavior in the middle east - that he is corrupt and evil simply does not cut it
Lois,
Why doesn't it? How many people have to die before you consider him evil? How much money has to flow to Halliburton, Carlysle, Enron, etc. before you consider him corrupt?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 19, 2005 - 03:43pm PT
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He isn't 'simply evil.' Being corrupt and being evil aren't quite the same thing. Being evil insinuates that you ARE just evil. You do bad things because they are bad and you are bad and that is it. Bush is caught up in a web of global political and economic manipulation with policies that favor the elite few. It is sold as being right for everyone, but it isn't. I don't think he is an evil man, I just think his priorities are in the wrong place.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2005 - 04:00pm PT
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Lois, get off of the fence you're sitting on.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Oct 19, 2005 - 04:12pm PT
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Then please start doing some research Lois. Listen to the radio, read the papers. Supertopo political spray-fests are just that. We scream at each other and find out what each other is thinking. It tests my beliefs and makes me do more research and gather more info, but I don't look to it to learn facts, just to learn what other people's opinions are. Oh, and also to be reminded that there are people who think the world is 6000 years old. That is always good to remember the next time there is a school bond up for a vote.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2005 - 04:47pm PT
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the root of the problem is Islamic clerics that want to kill or enslave them regardless of our activities in the middle east. It is plainly written in the Koran.
Quote me that passage. I dare you.
And if you do (which I doubt you will), I guarantee you can find something than can be interpreted similarly somewhere in the old testament.
I guarantee you that neither the islamic family that lives down the the street, nor the non-fundamentalist muslim in Iraq who just wants to live a normal life without having to fear for their life, has any interest in enslaving anybody.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 04:50pm PT
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fattrad:
I don't know that our restructuring will work any better than the 1918 version, however I don't think it will make it any worse either.
That's it? We've killed 2000+ of our best, maimed 10,000+ more, spent a trillion dollars and killed 100,000 for that? It won't be any better, but it might not be any worse?
Why can't you just admit that we are there to control the oil? If they had no oil we'd treat them just like we treat Pakistan and North Korea.
If you're going to be an imperialist, fine, don't be ashamed of it! What's with the freaking games?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 19, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
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Lois, one of the problems with this operation is that the facts--wmds, cost, insurgency danger, etc--have been quite uncertain the entire time or have been outright distorted, despite administration insistence otherwise. That is why I opposed the war from the beginning and believed it was an ill-conceived idea. Fatty says that the WMD issue is irrelevant. It isn't. I cannot trust an administration that misleads the public about the justification for undertaking one of the biggest foreign policy actions of our liftime. The truth is important. Nor did they ever see that we are creating more enemies than we can kill. This isn't some Michael Moore fabrication--intelligence agencies have said this.
Fatty, I don't think I have ever stated my thoughts about the motives for this. I happen to think that like you, Bush believes he is doing the right thing. I'm sure there are others in power who see profit potential, not unlike what's happened in many other wars.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 05:12pm PT
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Lois,
Evil is as evil does.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Oct 19, 2005 - 05:33pm PT
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Fattrad wrote: Right now we have weathly Saudi's funding OBL and Madrassas around the world teaching death to non-believers, how much worse can GWB do? If we wait for a chem/bio attack that will necessitate a nuclear response, better to invade Iraq and do a long term restructure (20-30 years).
So why didn't we invade the Saudi's and overrun thier country?
They have thier dicks so far up Bush's and company asses that will take surgery to get them out at this point.
I believe it's all about oil. Not for now...but for ten years from now and beyond.
Fattrad wrote: Gary,
I know evil, I have done evil things.
You must be a christian and a republican.
Just kidding.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 05:39pm PT
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Koran 5:69 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
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Hootervillian
climber
Bolivia, NV
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Oct 19, 2005 - 06:18pm PT
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SFChron, NYTimes, WPost, WSJ.... all mandatory, as a sample set extremely limited. Plenty of time for investigating several dozen sources/sites, somewhat concurrently, and consistently, paying close attention to timing, continuity, and to that which is not 'picked UP'.
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