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Rob_James
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
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Jan 17, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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No hoipolli: 1 foot tick marks - big deal.
I see metres upon pitches of white-chalked hands smeared up and down cliffs.
Tick marks are no good at all. And overtly leaving chalked hand marks over the face is no better. Get the chalk that can't be seen from the base.
Walls are more enjoyable when kept clean - period.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Jan 17, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Ticks dig me!?
Yes they do Chris! They do indeed...
break a leg
T
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Mungeclimber: self-effacing doesn't cut it in a lilliputian world.
If you're a hypocrite then have the sack to defend yourself. Especially if you are to critique others so for(u)mally.
Holds marked with white chalk -on anything other than white rock- are as much a part of the same game as tick marks. Thereby, if you're going to cite a standard, than hold it high - use chalk that can't be seen 'as markers' from the ground. Be it for your hands, ease, or comfort.
Rob,
Self effacing? Meh, possibly. To what do I need to 'cut' to make 'it?'
Are you implying by your resistance to my post that you are young, or that you place tick marks? Sounds like the former. Nothing wrong with that.
Hypocritical? meh, possibly. But I have no intention of defending my actions. You know what the post is about. I suspect you're annoyed at the fact that you are indoors and or not climbing. Understandable as well. Sack to defend against what?
I cited my standard. I held it high. I often don't use chalk up there, but sometimes need it. Maybe if they made chalk that was the color of 'castle rock grey' and then a separate bag for 'castle rock beige' I might just do that.
Feel free to respond.
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Rob_James
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
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Jan 17, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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Pleasure munge.
No I'm to be found well. Laps on the glacier this morning, went for a run, weights, and off to boulder in 20 mins. No deadly build-up (or soft bits to poke in the stomach here).
Yep. When you smear your white chalked hands all over that rock and leave it for others to see from the bottom - you be the hypocrite.
You are in part correct, and tick marks are not my scene either. And if you are to cite the standard, know that nobody should be leaving chalked hand prints tracking-up a route either.
If folk can't get chalk to match the outcrop, then either brush the chalk off before heading home, or grow some horns on those hands and go without.
You mean well. You just need to understand. Thank you for raising worthy discussion.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Then it's me that is annoyed at being indoors, without doubt.
'preciate you keeping this thread bumped to the top.
cheers,
M
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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I use chalk-- not very much outside because I don't need it very much outside. Sometimes it feels like a psychological crutch. I am happy to look at that aspect in order to respect others and the rock.
How do I "color" it? Do you keep different colors of chalk for Yos and for Pinns, and JTree, etc?
Do I need to stop at every place I need it/use it and brush off the hold after I use it? Do you do this?
Sorry, I'm just a noob tryin' to get educated.
oh, edit: I am a trad climber, not a boulderer.
edit: so far I don't remember ever ticking, can really get behind not doing that... waiting with anticipation for the colored chalk answer. I haven't seen this colored chalk/chalk which can't be seen of which you speak...
also, my regular partner who has been climbing over 40 years says they will have to pry the chalk bag from his cold, dead fingers...
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climbingjones
Trad climber
grass valley,ca
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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No Daphne you dont need to brush off your chalk/tick marks after you climb. Some people just like to bitch. Does it really bother you that much? Jesus Harold Christ! Get over yourself. Seems Bay Area climbers (isnt that the definition of an oxymoron?) like to feel important and better than you. Castle Rock does indeed suck out loud. But then again, if you live in the Bay Area.........
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2010 - 12:16am PT
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No Daphne you dont need to brush off your chalk/tick marks after you climb.
climbingjones, you are wrong in the most unequivocal way possible.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Jan 18, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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No chalk!?
Chalk has been banned?!
Wha...?
Man, POD won't look the same.
I won't know what pebble to pinch.
In all seriousness, I use chalk, don't like the look of it, it does make it easier for others following (unless some kook chalks the wrong hold hee hee) and from here on out will try and use it sparingly.
Tick marks are totally different and if you see someone doing that you should tick them, and see how THEY like it.
Dynamic ropes, sticky rubber, chalk, cams... we're all a bunch of pansies. Let's just all admit it. The difficulties go up, and the adventure goes down.
Chuck Taylors, a hemp rope, a bowline, and an onsight FA - now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout.
And I grew up in SJ and Castle Rock is a fine bouler area. It's the tards climbing there (all of us) that bring it down.
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Queener
Mountain climber
Fresno / Monterey/Reedley, CA
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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Well to me the bigger problem at Castle is the busted beer bottles and graffiti. I don't draw lines all over problems. Climbing has become so widely popular that you can no longer try to make a difference about chalk marks. Hell the most disgusting thing to climbing is ourselves. We are the best trail builders and cleaners of moss and dirt, not to mention to effects of setting crash pads on the ground, I won't even get into bolting and leaving webbing on routes... or large metal chains. If we are to bitch about it all, we ourselves should stop climbing and let the earth return to its original form. But if we stop, other will continue. So why stop? Why initiate trail building and clean ups if the trails are going to be ignored and the bottles strewn across the ground, again? Why post on SuperTopo? Who reads? Who cares? Really? As much as I would love to change the effects of climbing, I can't but feel helpless in doing so...
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Currently in San Diego
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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I havent seen "neutral" colored chalk widely sold in climbing shops where I have been, and I have been in and out of quite a few and would have noticed something like that.
Chalk, like most things in moderation, isn't a terrible thing. If you are climbing at an area with a great deal of use, traces will be left to some extent, but it would be appropriate for people to minimize those traces as much as possible. Ticks are excessive and should be avoided or cleaned off. Same with chalk spills and other unsightly messes.
Holds on established routes and problems that have a slight tinge of residual chalk doesn't seem worthy of getting ones shorts in a knot. I see it as being a pretty clear difference- ticking and using chalk in general. Sorry for being redundant.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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Morris did it.%^)
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Jan 18, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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in keeping with the tone of queener's post, which bears merit for pointing out all the little things we justify as "improvements,"
let me say that i love castle rock, grew up there, passed some transformative times there before, in an attempt to improve things i suppose, varian bought the place and turned it into a place on the map.
having seen the effect of the effort i have to add that act of publification as possibly the most deleterious of all.
sure you recognize the devil advocating here, but the self adjudicated act of altruism is the common theme, right up to and including
"saving" it from obscurity because he, and subsequently they, could afford to weigh in (leave his mark) with cash. ticking writ large.
absolutely the proliferation of the open space initiative is a wonderful aspect of the area. if bozos could hold them self in check,
(and if pigs could fly) we could enjoy the the best intentions of our benefactors without reservation
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Rob_James
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
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Jan 18, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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And for those considering, if you can't get suitable chalk from your supplier; write a letter, make a point, go without and/or minimize and mix with local dirt.
Consider simply. How by far more awesome is it to show-up with no holds defined, and just re-discover it all cleanly yourself?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2010 - 03:05am PT
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Given existing tensions and access issues in CRSP and SCP, it would seem using tick marks there would be a really bad idea all around.
EXISTING CONDITIONS Castle Rock State Park General Plan
ROCK CLIMBING AND THE PROTECTION OF SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES
A goal of park management is to provide opportunities for the visiting public to enjoy the
park. Another goal is to maintain or restore the qualities of natural features and
processes that visitors experience and enjoy. Because recreational pursuits impact
these qualities, the challenge becomes one of deciding how much change will be
allowed to occur, where, and what actions are needed to manage or mitigate it.
This are designated for climbing encompasses rock features, scenic vistas, and easy
trail access, which makes the Castle Rock Ridge one of the more popular destinations
for visitors to Castle Rock State Park. The presence of appealing climbing routes, the
growing interest in this sport, and the convenient location of this park to the Santa Clara
Valley has made rock climbing an integral part of planning and focus for the Castle
Rock Ridge area of the park. Rock climbing is one of the traditional uses of the park
occurring prior to the State’s acquisition, and several types and ability levels of climbing
are practiced. The unit issues special event permits for climbing instruction, and notice
is given that rock climbing is a “hazardous recreational activity,” as defined in
Government Code Section 831.7. Hikers, bird watchers, and others who are attracted
here by its natural beauty and opportunities for recreation are also frequent users of this
area.
The Department acknowledges these forms of recreation in the park, while at the same
time recognizing that resource values must be protected and preserved for the
enjoyment of present and future generations. However, impacts from climbing and
other forms of recreation, including soil compaction and erosion, moss removal from
scraped rock faces, ground vegetation removal, rock face exfoliation, disturbance to
wildlife, and bolting of rocks have resulted in a general decline in resource values. This
increase in climbing activity in the park has resulted in congested activity areas and has
caused users to pursue new climbs deeper into the interior of the park. Unauthorized
trails and rock bolting are appearing in areas previously undisturbed.
The Castle Rock Ridge area encompasses approximately 190 acres and is accessible
directly from the current main parking lot, Partridge Farm, and Saratoga Gap via the
Saratoga Gap and Ridge Trails. It is described as the Castle Rock Ridge Resource
Management Zone in Table 4 on page 58, and shown on the Resource Management
Zones, Map No. 5.
Rock climber
Geologic Features: Tafoni, Fossil Resources, and Associated Values
Castle Rock State Park is a popular destination for visitors because of its unique
geologic resources. Several sandstone outcrops of the Vaqueros and Butano
Formations in the park exhibit rare “tafoni” features. These differentially weathered
features, including caves, spheroidal masses referred to as “cannonballs,” and latticelike
structures on rock faces and walls termed “fretworks,” are often very fragile and can
be easily damaged.
Rock climbing on sandstone outcrops and boulders has become a popular form of
recreation in the park. However, impacts from this sport on rock features and
associated elements have resulted in a general decline in resource values. Impacts
include rock face exfoliation and tafone disturbance, moss removal from scraped rock
faces, soil compaction and erosion, ground vegetation removal, and disturbance to
wildlife. The Department acknowledges low impact climbing as a valid form of
recreation in the park, while at the same time recognizing that resource values must be
protected and preserved for the enjoyment of present and future generations.
Goal: Protect and preserve tafoni features, including caves, spheroid masses
called “cannonballs”, and lattice-work rock walls and faces. The fossil and
mineral record and specimens of Castle Rock State Park will also be
preserved.
Guidelines:
• Geological investigations will be performed on sandstone outcrops where
significant tafoni features are present in order to recommend and implement
appropriate measures for their preservation.
• Scientific investigation and analysis by various universities and museums should
be encouraged to broaden the knowledge of park resources. Private collection
and willful disturbance or dislodgment of the geological forms shall not be
allowed.
• In order to protect natural resource values, only low-impact recreational climbing
(defined below) will be allowed. A climbing management plan should be
developed that protects natural and cultural features, especially tafoni, and
includes mitigation for impacts resulting from climbing.
For purposes of this plan, low-impact rock climbing is defined as that form of rock
climbing that does not destroy or place into jeopardy of destruction the unique
tafoni features inherent in many rock outcrops. Low-impact climbing considers
the use of climbing equipment, including the appropriateness and possible use of
bolts, and prohibits the deliberate destruction of lichen, vegetation, soils, rock
surfaces, and/or rock art, including pictographs and petroglyphs, and prehistoric
rock shelter sites.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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You mean well. You just need to understand.
Kiwi go home.
Sad to say this, but the French are in the lead when it comes to bouldering and impact. Most of the locals at Fontainebleau are really rigorous about using the chalk sparingly, and brushing it off once they've finished a problem.
Castle is about as close to SF as Bleau is to Paris. Weirdly, Bleau can feel a lot more pristine.
Except for the hookers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Well to me the bigger problem at Castle is the busted beer bottles and graffiti.
What? You must mean Summit Rock. And for all this whining I gotta say CRSP is actually a pretty pristine park (aside from tick marks). When was the last time you guys were there? I never see any trash out there.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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Chalk is Cool.
"most rock looks better with chalk on it." Dick Cilley.
It's deliberate ticks that are bad. aid for the peretrators, and generally a hazard for subsquent ascentionists, especially if they very in any aspect of dimension form the bloated ticker.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 18, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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They may have had more success if they had written it in French.
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Jan 18, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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Tick marks???
Holy crap you guys should have seen Equinox in JTree yesterday. A friend and I walked out there b/c he wanted lead it. All he could say when we got to it was, "what a shame, I don't need any of those things." Anyway, he cranked it out. It was awesome! man I wish we had a third person for pictures.
But how disgraceful that someone couldn't even take the time to wipe the marks off.
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