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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 27, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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great post Ed, well put.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Really good stuff people and welcome all your thoughts and opinions.
It is generally found that even if two men have the same moral standards of ethics, honesty and morality, their positions are still not the same.
Thus there will always be an overlap, thus conflict.
Wherefore is the foundation that holds everything together?
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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Now the thread is getting even better ......
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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Roper included the following in his first Yosemite Guide: This was a letter to the editor in the SF Chronicle during thee first ascent of the Nose "It should be understood that these people are not climbing any more than my secretary is climbing when she takes the elevator up to our offices".
-Thomas L. P. Davies
Also:
"Aid climbing is like having a job as a carpenter except that you are not getting paid". -Bridwell
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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"Wherefore is the foundation that holds everything together?
therefore thus says the Lord God,
“Behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion,
a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation:
‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’
And I will make justice the line,
and righteousness the plumb line;
and hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
and waters will overwhelm the shelter.”
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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Sheesh.
Never said I was the Lord.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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A more controversial application of aid is Cesare Maestri's claimed ascent of Cerro Torre, the second time via the Compressor Route where he drilled his way up, though not to the top...
Should one of the "rules" be that all equipment is human-powered?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 27, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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No..
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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It's kinda spooky that Coz can read my mind .....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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"Steve was impressed, with the expando, and I was sure I had established A5, but when he saw my rivet he shook his head, sorry dude you drilled.
So, I think at lest with Steve aid climbing is no anarchy. Answer no.
When anarchy becomes authority it no longer is anarchy but the law."
If you had just drilled the anchor where you placed the rivet would it have been A5?
Anarchists are often very opinionated with tons of rules for themselves (and anyone who will listen) Try to get him to follow your rules and see if there is anarchy
Ratings and egos seems to go together and with aid climbing, they have become almost meaningless
Peace
Karl
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MH2
climber
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Nov 28, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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Werner
Wherefore is the foundation that holds everything together?
I'd also ask; Where is the separation that allows people with different ideas to do what they want?
ihateplastic
I firmly believe the real rules are internal
I think those rules don't undo anarchy, but how did you come by those internal rules?
It seems like Steve Gerberding's aiding rules would conflict with those of at least a couple other posters. If another aid climber comes along and makes a significant change to a route, like adding a new bolt for example, they would catch flack, right?
When you tell someone else what you think they should do, perhaps that is just trying to foster internal rules in the other person. But if you resort to any kind of force, maybe you have set yourself up as an objective authority and anarchy has morphed to something different.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 28, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Coz,
I don't call bullshit on your story, but it seems more like it could be a sick aid climber's joke to me. Add up all those feet on the sharp end, and I would guestimate that the final 3 feet to the anchor probably wouldn't have made much of a difference if you took the elevator down towards the ledges/slab. Again, I haven't been there so I'm not pointing fingers.
Following are questions from a gumby:
Was drilling a rivet 3 feet from an anchor really less tenuous than whatever trickery was needed to get to the end of the pitch?
Have aid climber's ever been known to drill, chip, or chisel purely for the benefit of the follower (or lack of their benefit for that matter)?
Is aid climbing a sort of debauchery (elevated to "high" art by rules)?
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yosguns
climber
Durham, NC
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Nov 28, 2009 - 02:09am PT
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I shouldn't post this...
I had a meeting with my Property Law professor and another interested student a couple months ago about the community standards that revolve around bolting ethics. Some of you might have seen earlier posts...
Anyway, the meeting ended with some comment about students of anarchy. So...in response to this aid climbing and anarchy thread, I'd like to remind every climber that to some extent, climbing is a sort of anarchy. (If defying the laws of gravity isn't enough...) The climbing community that I was lucky to be a part of before I left California has adopted an entire body of rules and ethics that exists on the fringe of highly regulated parcels of land (National Parks, parks of any sort, etc.). I would imagine this is true for every climbing community.
I can't help but think this anarchic aspect appeals to a certain "outlaw" type; one that would lend himself (peacefully or not) to climbing (following the Grateful Dead...etc. (re Dead Head thread)), whether that climbing be aid or what have you.
PS I was going to start another thread about this, but thought better of it. FORTUNATELY, no one had replied, so I could delete my original post. :)
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 28, 2009 - 03:31am PT
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If we can have Anarchy in aid climbing, can we have Marshall Law? That's where Piton Ron starts shooting people off the wall.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 28, 2009 - 08:40am PT
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Only if they're ankle biting, hammering on clean routes or leaving drag marks.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 28, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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"Aid climbing to me is a way to go vertical back-backing"
I like it!
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 28, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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Coz,
Thanks for the clarification. Also, thanks for keeping some of the history alive here for us to read.
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Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
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Nov 28, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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Hey ron, just wondering to avoid the drag marks on sandstone, i assume you would suggest doing vertical or less walls without hauling (in a push). Would an alternative of short end hauling be a good way to pull the bags away from the rock as you haul or is that pointless??
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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Nov 28, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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rhetorical:
if "sacred" el cap raps can be pounded into submission than why cant the meadows be sport bolted. which option is more detramental to future climbers. you can always skip sport bolts. (ive never climbed el cap)
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Nov 29, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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anarchy is when the babbling brook flows to the ocean only to return in the form of rain....
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