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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 26, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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Me don't know, that's why I ask and might be a cool discussion?
Anyways it seems like there really are no real rules on what you can and can not do? Or just a moving rule?
Not that there needs to be a rule? Or does a rule need to be there?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Nov 26, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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even mr braun drifts in and outa the know.
if anarchy is a step in the forward-sideways-backward progression of social consciousness, then aid climbing could snuggle up to this idea as a synonym.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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there is the sense that once you resort to aid, you can climb anything, it's just the application of technology
the technology is so well developed that climbers can apply it to whatever degree they choose on any route anywhere
George Willig climbed the south tower of the World Trade Center in 1977, essentially jugging up the window washer guide slot (heads up Juan, he apparently lives in San Fernando Valley... works as a contractor) is it climbing? any of us could do it if we had the balls (and if the WTC was still there)
A more controversial application of aid is Cesare Maestri's claimed ascent of Cerro Torre, the second time via the Compressor Route where he drilled his way up, though not to the top...
Aid climbing with a certain outcome isn't very interesting to most adventure seeking people, so "rules" are applied to even up the contest...
...whose rules? well that is truly anarchy.. depends on the locale and the locals.
Gotta say though, Piton Ron stories are that he's the marshal out there in his corner of the wild west...
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
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You want anarchy?
Have kids, and try to raise them in this world...
Hehehe. sm
Aid climbing is FUN to me though.
Soloing is 90% work, 10% fun when you're doin' it.
And 10% work, 90% fun when you tell the story afterwards.
I guess in the least, aid climbing is hard to pigeon-hole.
What is this problem-solving game of jeopardy, really?
Happy Thanksgiving!
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matty
Trad climber
los arbor
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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The rules of nature and man combine on an aid climb to give a certain tingle to ones spine.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!
Matt
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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As soon as I can afford to buy my Ericsson Skycrane I plan to use that form of aid to climb Everest. Then, as I have alreay posted, I'll use it to do a Facelift for that so badly misused mountain.
Edit:
Just had a thought. Once all the trash and bodies have been gathered into cargo nets on the mountain we would not have to schedule their pick up when someone is there to hook them into the long line. Can be done anytime. Just have someone hanging at the end of the long line. Clip, and haul away.
The climbers at base camp can even help get the trash back to a road. The Skycrane can just drop the trash down from 30,000 feet over basecamp.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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Ummmmmnnn .......
Ed ...whose rules? well that is truly anarchy.. depends on the locale and the locals.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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Call me if you need help, jstan.
Seriously.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Well as a tower wannabee, not every summit is free and some of the coolest lines on formations will NEVER be free. I will argue bolts (not aid) bring every form of climbing down. Hammer, hooks, heads, and pins (read: peckers) technology has its place to avoid the dreaded hole (see WOS BS). Any idiot can drill a bolt ladder and any fool can put bolts 4.5' apart on a sport route. Clean aid is also a worthy goal and I applaud those who try to do things w/o a hammer.
I also feel that electric drills are the devil and I only wish their use in all forms of climbing were banned.
And, aid is not only the physical climbing. It is also the logistics, approach, deproach, fear, food etc.
plus, I love to trundle and the feel of sand baked in my eyes is like nothing else. Drinks, cool partners, and thoughts of shrimp cocktails all add to the experience.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Is aid climbing some sort of Monarchy?
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Nah
Not balls Kevin, but the beautiful art of engineering.
Chiseling and pasting a head into a seem is not as interesting as compared to pins, stacked pins, cam hooks, hooks and all kinds of passive gadgets.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 26, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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The "Rules" go out the window when I am on the sharp end of a row of less than pleasant aid moves. At that point it is all ports in a storm... everything short of drilling (unless a new route, then I have that option!)
I firmly believe the real rules are internal; what do we expect from ourselves and what do we accept for ourselves. If, once out of view of any audience, you are cool with wailing on thick Lost Arrows in a deep crack that would accept any number of Stoppers, cams, etc. than that is your choice. Be prepared for crap if others discover your technique.
I remember when I would hear noise from my mentors if I dared let a knee touch the rock during a free climb. Blasphemy! Now we can rap bolt a "line" and call it an instant classic.
Rambling...
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 26, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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The Possibility of something being impossible appeals to me that's part of the adventure. Drilled holes, and sculpturing the rock removes some of that idea.
I agree with the anarchy being more internal. Some people have some style, some people have a lot of style, and some people have no style what so ever.
Off Topic: Sure it's damn fun, but let's face it driving pins beats up cracks over a period of time unlike bolts. It's cool to see some of these 5.13-5.14 and even some 5.12 cracks get sent free climbing before they see a hammer.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 26, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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From Dictionary.com (etymology of anarchy)
Anarchy
1530s, from M.L. anarchia, from Gk. anarkhia "lack of a leader," noun of state from anarkhos "rulerless," from an- "without" + arkhos "leader" (see archon). Anarchism is attested from 1642. Anarch (n.) "leader of leaderlessness," a deliciously paradoxical word, was used by Milton, Pope, Byron. Anarcho-syndicalism is first recorded 1913.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEaxWHRpOYY
Ummmmm... Mr. Braun. If aid climbing is a sort of anarchy, and anarchy implies "lack of a leader", how can there be climbing if there isn't a leader?
Mr. Braun's post: A koan(unintentional)? A shout out to trad.. ahem excuse me, free climbing? A friendly jab at aid climbers?
If leaderless (anarchic) aid does actually exist, maybe it includes roped solo aid ascents? If there is no partner would there be no leader? Maybe anarchic aid includes Potter on the Nose, and wasn't there a Fish on the Zodiac?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Don't be so quick to equate anarchy with chaos because that characterization only really suits the purposes of the state.
Ultimate responsibility begins and ends with the mindful individual just as it does in aid climbing and by extension wall climbing. How one person exercises the power that they possess, be it destructive or otherwise, affects everyone in that aspect of life.
The answer is yes.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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chrisw-
You're obviously out of touch with aid climbing. Things you can get your fingers into are not nailed these days- it is thin, thin sh#t- seams up to 1/8". Leaders don't place rows and rows of 1/2" angles in good rock. I belayed Jeremy on a 160' primarily 3/16" seam on a blank wall. No human will ever be able to free that route. Peckers might be used for ascents 1-3, but then spicy brass nuts will come into play. Still, the wall is smooooooth and blank and varies from 85 degrees to 98 degrees off vertical. (I'll take you there as there are 7 other lines to first ascent if you want to wing it).
I can clean aid anything you can free. More often than not, things have to be cleaned (excavated or have big death blocks moved) before a free opportunity exists on many of the pitches I have FA'd. This is really impossible on a free ascent. Let us do our job, you can come in second to free it.
Pins have their place and proper cleaning is maybe more important than placement.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 26, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Please define "aid" climbing.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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There is some pretty scary aid climbs out there. Anarchy of a sort but even that isn't accurate. I know many aid climbers that will use trad gear as much as possible so they are following a few guidelines. I have heard that if it can be done with trad, they view that aid becomes an unacceptable form on that route.
Well, except for the nose since only the super human best can get away with using only trad.
AFS
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 26, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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Rick D said "You're obviously out of touch with aid climbing. Things you can get your fingers into are not nailed these days- it is thin, thin sh#t- seams up to 1/8". Leaders don't place rows and rows of 1/2" angles in good rock. I belayed Jeremy on a 160' primarily 3/16" seam on a blank wall."
There's always some exception and yes there's some aid that will probably never go free. As there is some freeclimbs that never will probably be aided or is impossible to aid to begin with. Without adding bolts, holes, or enhancing placements for hooking.
You also said something about: You can aid climb anything I can Free Climb. Are you sure about that?
sorry i cant take you up on your offer as i am out of the freeclimbing game with some injuries. I would really like to that's the kind of stuff that's just plain FUN.
A climb that has mix aid and free climbing is pretty rad going from aid to free back to aid, gotta love it.
Ok lets get back on subject, not what you can climb or what i can climb.
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