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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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I like the Space Station, with the extra large diameter rap point.
I don't think it would collect much debris on Space Babble -
it's pretty clean above that route; the Kor-Beck corners funnel stuff away from the face.
They are all stainless, so I don't think there are any plating issues.
Steve, you can always go up there (fairy easy to access via Kor-Beck)
and drop those into the existing bolts; I think they would fit.
There are a couple of rusty 3/8" split shaft bolts at a couple of anchors,
so you could clean those up as well.
Sorry if we sort of jumped your project - if only all routes had competition for rebolting!
I had promised to do it before I heard you were interested.
And I wasn't sure when you were going to get around to it, so I just went for it.
Also, I hadn't realized the Space Station setup was meant specifically for Space Babble (I didn't make the name connection) -
I had assumed it was for general use, and you had other rebolting projects.
By the way, if you want an interesting rebolting project,
the pitches on the Smith-Crawford above where it intersects Mother Earth are still original 1/4".
There are also some original 1/4" on the upper part of Mother Earth above the traverse ledge.
P.S. Kev and I did most of the replacement together. We spent 2 semi-rainy days replacing the upper anchors and fixing ropes to the ground. I went back 3 days later when it was dry to finish the last few bolts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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I agree with Jimbo.
People who lower on fixed stuff, especially in the desert where ropes turn into rat tail files, should be excoriated.
Damn right! Wear out your own gear!
But you guys at the ASCA can get a little uppity too.
Just because you think your anchors are best is not a good enough reason to marginalize the route's pioneer and ignore his intent (downright foolish if he is a known charitable donor, n'est pas?)
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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scuffy b
climber
Whuttiz that Monstrosicos Inferno?
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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What's with all the single-ring setups?
Also, if you go with a vertical orientation, it's really easy to get the
holes drilled so that one bolt is getting all the load.
You may not think that's a big deal, but it probably isn't your intention,
either.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Kind reply Clint.
Steve, Why put energy into something that's already complete, venture out and get something new going! I think Karma could use a nice rebolt job. Maybe you can come up with some custom bolts/chains for those traversing pitches?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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Partial to bare Metolius Rap Hangers myself, though I wish they'd do a 1/2" version of them.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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But Ed, even without lowering they get wear grooves which should be made in replaceable links.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Everything shown or discussed here (other than the various rings) will wear in the same spot every time, severely shortening the life of the anchor. The beauty of the single or double ring anchors is that the rings rotate and never really wear in the same spot repetitively, severely lengthening their lives.
The need to untie is the only downside to rings, but it's one shared with the Metolius and various quicklink options shown or discussed above.
I made the switch to rings a few years back and have seen them far outlast previous anchor options at popular areas. No looking back for me...
And, I also applaud Greg and the ASCA's efforts.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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If the ASCA would rather see ring boxes than what I advocated and put together specifically for this project, I am a bit amazed. The breakdown between discussion and action is the source of my frustration here. As I stated earlier, I would have been more than happy to supply this stuff so that it would be a very long time before the need for any more anchor work would come up again.
Bigger steel can hardly be considered a bad thing especially when the number of protection points is small and the runouts and rockfall are, at least in my mind, a big consideration in choosing what to install. I can certainly find some great spots to install them elsewhere.
A fixed pin or protection bolt failure would be pretty bad news on this thriller as you really need almost all of them.
I raised a lot of issues surrounding Space Babble but I guess it was just soliloqouy...
A Pinbolt stamped Buy Fishprods will be available for inspection on Double Cross before XX-mas....
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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day late and a buck short, thanks for playing.
I think it's worth noting this isn't a grossman FA.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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Clint:
I think your last post is pretty much the nicest one that I have ever read on any forum...and with the most class!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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A Pinbolt stamped Buy Fishprods will be available for inspection on Double Cross before XX-mas....
that's what I'm talkin' about!!!1116664
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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An interesting discussion. Aren't we all glad that belays using a pair of 1.5 " or 2" x 1/4" Rawl split shaft bolts are no more? Particularly those joined by the American Death Triangle (with a rap ring, if lucky), or placed in poor rock? We're a lot better off than we were.
That said, modern belay bolts very often are placed too closely together. They don't allow for fractured, crumbly or otherwise unreliable rock. (Some of the photos upthread looked of potential concern.) GIGO. It doesn't make much sense - they're mostly placed with a power drill, so it's no harder to place them a safe distance apart. The only downside is that where chains and/or rings are required, a greater length is needed.
BELAY BOLTS MUST BE PLACED A SAFE DISTANCE APART, ALLOWING FOR THE NATURE OF THE ROCK AND THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE AREA THAT THEY'RE PLACED IN!
I like Petzl belay/rappel setups, and am confident in their engineering. Well-designed stuff. The difficulty with custom made products, however carefully designed, is that they don't - as it were - come with a seal of approval, and don't look "standard". The average climber may not know what to make of them. And many of the gimcrack hardware store screwlink + galvanized chain + quick link + cold shuts/carabiner etc setups are not confidence inspiring to anyone knowing much about the stuff.
There's one climber in this area who makes a fetish of placing marginal belay anchors. He makes many new routes, although not all are of any great quality. His 'belays' are bolts placed very close together, often with only one having a real hanger, then joined with hardware store chain and split links. It's usually impossible to use the things as a belay. (This in areas with many climbers - not wilderness.) Others have replaced some of these belays, but in a few instances, he re-replaced the good, new anchors with his version. Money is not an issue - he's quite well to do. A controversial and somewhat territorial figure, for all his somewhat misguided energy.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Greg- Perhaps you ASCA guys should sit down with some climbing saavy engineers and work this through just as I had to while drafting the artificial climbing wall engineering specification as board chairman of CWIG.
I said this elsewhere and will repeat it to make my point again. A 3/8" Grade 5 bolt or cap screw BARELY pencils out as strong enough (with all appropriate life safety factors) to be installed on a climbing wall as a protection point to hold repeated falls. Each protection point is engineered as a stand alone anchor designed to hold repeated hard falls.
The 3/8" Powers 5- piece stainless that seem to be the mainstay of your activities will not meet the muster for a climbing wall installation.
A 3/8" wedge anchor in stainless barely makes it and likely fails because stainless steel usually deforms more easily than Grade 5 conventional steel.
You can believe that average ultimate failure figures are what you need to site but don't indulge yourself that way in a courtroom. Despite the cost, you guys really need to be thinking and acting in terms of placing 1/2" diameter solid stainless steel bolts.
Humjob- You have nice brown lips that match your nice brown nose. Wipe off your chin, tidy up and come back for some more while it is still warm. You are cute, real cute...
Anders- Sorry to hear that you have a bolt weasel sneaking around your area.
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LccMonkey
Trad climber
utah
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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Replaced this two years ago with the same style, Now I hear It is worn out by now.
The best thing about the big fixe rings, is that they dont wear on the same spot.
God Bless the asca.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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The old 1/4"ers lasted 30-40 years and didn't have but a rare failure incident here or there. They were short as well, often only 1-1/4" deep.
Kind of makes you wonder doesn't it? Yet you think that the 3/8" 5 piece are too weak......
Oh, today's safer bolts: 1/2 x 7" stainless wedge anchor next to a 3/8 x 2 and change steel 5 piece and a 3/8 x 2 something wedge anchor.
My experience in the wet zone with those steel 5 pieces, which seemed to be the shizz when they came out like 20 years ago, is that they rust solid internally, and are NOT replaceable. Trying to back out the bolt will have it easily snap right where the threads start. It's surprising how little pressure it takes for it to do this. As the rusting is under the rock, and not visible at all, I believe it is a matter of time until these are determined to be time bombs just waiting to fail, and a new bolt replacement initiative is needed to replace that old rusty steel crap. Of course, in desert areas, your results will vary.
Watch it happen....
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Why thank you Steve, I appreciate the fine complement! We aim to please at MichaelDental...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Humjob- You know the score between us and your laughable vow to do better. It is a battle of wits with an unarmed man from my perspective. As you like it...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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The 'standard' up here is now 10 mm stainless steel, although there are many 3/8" bolts placed over the last 20 years that seem to be doing OK, except for some galvanized ones placed in the late 1980s before we learned better.
It's very odd. The magazines and books regularly tell climbers not to lower through rings or chains, to reduce wear. Almost all climbers lower through them, notwithstanding. I've seen many experienced climbers who undoubtedly know better do so, and have been criticized for generally refusing to lower or toprope through fixed chains/rings. Along with gimcrack chain/ring setups, and belay bolts placed too close together or in unsound rock, another mystery.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Steve,
> you guys really need to be thinking and acting in terms of placing 1/2" diameter solid stainless steel bolts.
Where power drilling is legal, this is what most people already use for replacement. The thinking was done a long time ago.
Greg/ASCA and others already use 1/2" for sandstone in Red Rocks, Indian Creek, etc.
If you want to come down to Yosemite and drill 1/2" by hand, or recruit volunteers to do it, please go right ahead.
But I think the pace of replacement would be extremely low with 1/2" by hand in Yosemite.
I've drilled 1/2" by hand at Pinnacles and Indian Creek - it's slow enough even on those types of rock!
I don't think the calculations for repeated falls on a steep indoor climbing wall match up very well to slab falls in Yosemite, or to rarely done routes or climbs that otherwise don't see many falls.
P.S. Using insults in an argument is a very ineffective style, in my view. Look up "ad hominem" if you like.
I think you can do better than that.
You have valid points, but then you kind of spoil it sometimes....
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