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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
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Jan:
Perhaps it would be unsurprising if we were in all three simultaneously. We have adored celebrity for some decades now and as things get progressively worse the "good old days" will come up frequently.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 12, 2011 - 01:05am PT
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Exodus 20:7, “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
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augustine came shortly after the nicean councils and the romanization of christianity. it's difficult to reconstruct that time--the western roman empire was supposedly collapsing and constantine seemed to turn to the christian religion as a way of extending the empire. with that came a real religious fascism, the stamping out of doctrinal quarrels and imposition of orthodoxy. i think christianity has been a nightmare ever since.
augustine is quite the figure--his longsuffering mother, good old santa monica, prayed and prayed for him and eventually he came around from his philandering and hereticizing and got to be mr. true blue jesus man, and after that a big shot bishop. read his books--he's got all the answers.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 12, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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While participating in a conversation about God and religion amongst Albert Einstein, Max Plank, Wolfgang Pauli, and Werner Heisenberg, Paul Dirac said: I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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I'm for it: keeping "God" as a metaphor, idiom or figure of speech. Consider "keeping one's fingers crossed" for comparison. Or, "Yeah, the Grim Reaper didn't catch us today, thank God!"
.....
Keep your fingers crossed... that our descendants will have the wherewithal to carry on without fossil fuels because cheap easy energy, after 200-plus glorious years, is near its end.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
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Norton-
re: Original Sin
My take on "Original Sin" is that it's got a dozen or more different interpretations (incl. the so-called "First Sin" by Adam and Eve) all of which in the end - by today's standards - muck up otherwise clear waters having to do with dystropy (bad turn events), why bad things happen, evil, disease, illnesses, shortcomings, flaws, etc. - the mucking up of which much of today's religious leadership and community of theologians and educated traditional theological devotees just love. Because it gives them wiggle room, everlasting work or jobs, or simply because they just love to wallow in it.
Soon new frameworks will emerge - new frameworks of thinking, new frameworks of belief - that will open up new territory and landscapes which in turn will warrant setting aside all that old stuff - the whole shebang of it. In one fell swoop. Unless for some reason you don't want to, like because you want to study the early or ancient bronze age stuff. Like astrology or witchcraft.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
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OMG.
"God is he scary looking."
Chris Matthews on the mugshot of Loughner.
We are SUCH a function of our genes. All the way around. Aren't we? Case in point:
Or...
Who would YOU rather meet up with on a cold dark winter night deep in the sierra?
I say...
Sometimes Nature's a cruel Mother (or Mistress).
Food for thought.
There but for the grace of (a) fate, (b) Mother Nature, (c) God, (d) all the above, go I.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 12, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
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Hey Gobee, since you like to quote Exodus, you like this one from the word of God?
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Seriously Gobee, surely you can agree that God would not be so petty as to tell parents to kill their own children?
Surely, you can agree that a mentally screwed up, ignorant man some 2000 years ago heard voices
in his head and concluded that god was talking to him and to write this down for all God's followers
throughout eternity to believe.
ALL of the bible is NOT from the word of God, is it Gobee?
But of course you would say YES, it is ALL the word of God and who are we to question it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
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re: special case
My view: I say Go-B and ID4Jesus and thaDood (Trip7) qualify as a "special case" - let them have their narrative ("Under Jehovah") and let's move on. To the new areas awaiting, the pioneers we are. FA's await...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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HFCS -- Playing with words again ^^^^
When the lightning strikes, all your mundane made up speculative words and ideas become instantly useless ...
Just as the man in the desert cries water and that word alone will never satisfy nor quench the thirst.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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OK, so where did the universe come from? what happened right before the Big Bang??
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
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" ... what happened right before the Big Bang??
Some guy lit the fuse .....
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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When you subtract everything there is only God!
"special case"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
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Hey Gobee, since you like to quote Exodus, you like this one from the word of God?
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Seriously Gobee, surely you can agree that God would not be so petty as to tell parents to kill their own children?
Surely, you can agree that a mentally screwed up, ignorant man some 2000 years ago heard voices
in his head and concluded that god was talking to him and to write this down for all God's followers
throughout eternity to believe.
ALL of the bible is NOT from the word of God, is it Gobee?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 13, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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When there ain't nothing, that something IS God!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jan 14, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Nooooooooooo!!!!! Not gnashing of teeth! The horror!
Thanks Gob! Now I'm one more step further from believing your absurdist philosophy. Keep 'em coming!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 14, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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A couple days ago I posted some material dealing with the rise of St. Augustine who created a number of current christian beliefs and practices. He lived during the fourth century at the time the Western Roman Empire was in decline. Now a tree ring study that concerns climate changes of that day.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12186245
Science & Environment
14 January 2011 Last updated at 12:19 ET
Roman rise and fall 'recorded in trees'
By Mark KinverScience and environment reporter, BBC News
An extensive study of tree growth rings says there could be a link between the rise and fall of past civilisations and sudden shifts in Europe's climate.
A team of researchers based their findings on data from 9,000 wooden artifacts from the past 2,500 years.
They found that periods of warm, wet summers coincided with prosperity, while political turmoil occurred during times of climate instability.
The findings have been published online by the journal Science.
"Looking back on 2,500 years, there are examples where climate change impacted human history," co-author Ulf Buntgen, a paleoclimatologist at the Swiss Federal Research Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape, told the Science website.
The team capitalised on a system used to date material unearthed during excavations.
"Archaeologists have developed oak ring width chronologies from Central Europe that cover nearly the entire Holocene and have used them for the purpose of dating artefacts, historical buildings, antique artwork and furniture," they wrote.
"Chronologies of living and relict oaks may reflect distinct patterns of summer precipitation and drought."
The team looked at how weather over the past couple of centuries affected living trees' growth rings.
During good growing seasons, when water and nutrients are in plentiful supply, trees form broad rings, with their boundaries relatively far apart.
But in unfavourable conditions, such as drought, the rings grow in much tighter formation.
The researchers then used this data to reconstruct annual weather patterns from the growth rings preserved in the artefacts.
Once they had developed a chronology stretching back over the past 2,500 years, they identified a link with prosperity levels in past societies, such as the Roman Empire.
"Wet and warm summers occurred during periods of Roman and medieval prosperity. Increased climate variability from 250-600 AD coincided with the demise of the western Roman empire and the turmoil of the migration period," the team reported.
"Distinct drying in the 3rd Century paralleled a period of serious crisis in the western Roman empire marked by barbarian invasion, political turmoil and economic dislocation in several provinces of Gaul."
Dr Buntgen explained: "We were aware of these super-big data sets, and we brought them together and analyzed them in a new way to get the climate signal.
"If you have enough wood, the dating is secure. You just need a lot of material and a lot of rings."
End of report
I have been familiar with the road systems archeologists have studied in North Africa and the evidence that part of the world used to support a substantial civilization, unlike today.
Would be interesting to know whether the fall of that region and a redirection of christianity were all tied in to what happened to the climate. Forests are the first thing that goes when population becomes dense. And forests are the major mediator for ground water and the local disposition of incident solar energy.
Original sin may have been created to explain why people were being punished by a deteriorating climate. St. Augustine came out of the region we now call Algeria.
Fascinating!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 14, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
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"I guess the only thing left to do is save your soul, whatever that means."
Royal Robbins - Movie, 180 degrees South
Sounds like Royal's heart has been touched. Glory to God!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 15, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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The rise and fall of Chinese dynasties has also been corelated with multi year failures of the monsoon which brought drought and famine, leading people to conclude that the emperor had lost his mandate from heaven.
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