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jstan
climber
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Jan 10, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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Werner you describe exactly the process by which we discovered the earth actually orbits the sun and not the other way around.
And yes the dictionary does include words that describe things that may not even exist.
honesty
integrity
honor
courage
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 10, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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"Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)"
This was the original post and after 5000+ posts, it is finally clear that this question, whether intended or not, really only applies to those that "believe in God." Sure, it's a open forum and opinions will continue, but how does a person answer that question that doesn't "believe in God?" What basis do they have other than unbelief?
Let's revitalizing the original question, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" by hearing from the select few of you believers and let us fellowship "one to another"! Ummm... Actually, many, if not most, people who do not believe in God did at some time in their past... Myself included. Thus, atheists have a unique perspective from both sides of the fence, having lived on each. Also note that the VAST MAJORITY of atheists and agnostics know much more about religion(s) than do the VAST MAJORITY of the faithful.
So... Given that, who would have a more "informed [not emotional] opinion"?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 10, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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WC... It's just another attempt to dismiss everything that doesn't agree with his world view in one fell swoop.
A better way to say it to ID, since he uses this line of flawed logic when it suits HIM is this:
How can you have any opinion about "Allah", when you have convinced yourself that it is a different God, and thus don't believe in him?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 10, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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It almost seems the outlandish things said these days are just an attempt to be noticed.
People seem starved for attention.
In earlier generations you tried to avoid being noticed. Being noticed resulted in your being assigned something more on which you had to work,
Edit:
Indeed if this is true it is only a small leap to conclude one of the root causes for the approaching failure of representative democracy is
child labor law.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 10, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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reminds me of the case of lou gottlieb's estate.
lou was the bass player of the limelighters, a successful 60s folksinging group. he also ran an extensive hippie-style commune somewhere on the fringe of the bay area. lou was a wit and a scholar, in addition to being a great singing and songwriting talent. when he died, he willed the entire estate to god. as i understand it, the matter made it to the california supreme court--i guess everyone was taking god seriously up to that point. but the supremes wouldn't allow the will to be probated because, they said, god could not be contacted for assessment of property taxes upon taking possession of the land.
think about it, fellas. that's a pretty lofty authority refusing to take god seriously.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 10, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 10, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 10, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 11, 2011 - 07:32am PT
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*The Supreme Court swears by the God of the Holy Bible(Old & New Testament).
Yea, so what? That is an argument from authority, but...
Remember this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_(politician)
After elected to Congress, he swore in on a copy of the Qur-an once owned by Thomas Jefferson (remember him?),
NOT the Holy Bible.
Now fill in the blank, and see if you get the relevance:
"Congress makes the laws that are enforced by the ___."
Or, here are some Presidents that weren't "sworn in" with the Bible:
-John Quincy Adams
-Lyndon Johnson
-Theodore Roosevelt
-Franklin Pierce
-Herbert Hoover
So, again, what's your point?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 11, 2011 - 10:10am PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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Dr. F-
So what's your view of God as metaphor? as an atheist; or what's your opinion, your stance, on continuing to use "God" idioms or metaphors? -As a part of speech or conversation. Just curious.
e.g., "From your lips to God's ear."
e.g., "He ain't got the brains God gave a squirrel."
e.g., "There but for the grace of the Gods go I."
Is this okay? weak, lame? what? Just curious as to your take on it
.....
I'm trying to think of a couple more favorite God figures of speech. But they escape me right now. But there are many.
cf: Use of "God", "Mother" Nature, the "Grim Reaper"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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Fructose, what's up the concept of Original Sin?
Isn't this one of the core things, especially Christianity?
The idea that new born babies come out as "sinners" and only through the
indoctrination into the rituals of X religion can they be saved from evil
and have a shot at a pleasurable afterlife eternity.
Do religions other than Christianity have original sin as a base tenant?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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God damn it: is used a lot as a god metaphor thing
or teenage girls' favorite: OH MY GOD
God help us!
There go I for the grace of god
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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It was the Abrahamic religion's story element for explaining a number of things. All through one neat tidy package. Right?
.....
Norton, I'm out the door right now. For my first ever colonoscopy. Wish me luck! Hahaha!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 11, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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Norton-
Original Sin was an idea first taught by St. Augustine three hundred years after the founding of Christianity. It was never accepted by the Eastern Orthodox, African or Middle Eastern Christians. Later on, Protestants rejected it as well.
One of the things that always makes me nervous about the modern day fundamentalists is their emphasis on man's sinfulness. It's as though they were emulating Augustine, an odd stance for a group of people who don't care much otherwise, for Catholic doctrine.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 11, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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More idiocy by the Westboro band of haters Can't you just feel the love of Jesus from these fine Christians?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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After a (very) little research following Jan’s input I find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo#Original_sin”
"Augustine of Hippo (/????st?n/;[1] Latin: Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis)[2] (November 13, 354
– August 28, 430), also known as Augustine, St. Augustine, St. Austin,[3] Blessed Augustine, or
St. Augustine the Blessed,[4] was Bishop of Hippo Regius (present-day Annaba, Algeria). He was
a Latin-speaking philosopher and theologian who lived in the Roman Africa Province. His writings
were very influential in the development of Western Christianity.
Augustine, a Latin Church Father, is one of the most important figures in the development of
Western Christianity. He "established anew the ancient Faith" (conditor antiquae rursum fidei),
according to his contemporary, Jerome.[5] In his early years he was heavily influenced by
Manichaeism and afterward by the Neo-Platonism of Plotinus.[6] After his conversion to
Christianity and baptism (387), Augustine developed his own approach to philosophy and
theology, accommodating a variety of methods and different perspectives.[7] He believed that
the grace of Christ was indispensable to human freedom, and he framed the concepts of original sin and just war.
When the Western Roman Empire was starting to disintegrate, Augustine developed the concept
of the Church as a spiritual City of God (in a book of the same name), distinct from the material
Earthly City.[8] His thought profoundly influenced the medieval worldview. Augustine's City of
God was closely identified with the church, the community that worshipped God.[9]”
End excerpt
It would appear this person, born in present day Algeria, was converted to xity while aged 33 at
a tumultous time when the Western Roman Empire was collapsing. The above work also states
this person was in conflict with the Pelaguisian school having quite different views on the
enterprise. In the process he “developed his own approach to philosophy and theology.”
Presumably following his own lights and the demands of the day.
Bottom line? Many of the concepts embodied in the christian enterprise were developed
independently more than three centuries after christ by a person who converted at middle age
and whose creations were developed in response to the environment that existed more than
1500 years ago.
Edit:
I need to go back and find out what he did prior to his conversion.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jan 11, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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Can't you just feel the love of Jesus from these fine Christians?
Seems to me this is as good a reason as any for some sentient deity to make its presence & intentions known. Or perhaps it has and the message is "These are the kinds of people that exemplify my true followers"...
If that's the case, a friend of the devil is a friend of mine...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 11, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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jstan-
I had not made that connection with Augustine before but you're right and that is more intelligible probably to the average person than nativisitic, messianic cargo cults but here's how they apply.
Nativism - the religious idea that if we go back to the ways of our ancestors, then life will again be good as it was then. The Ghost Dance movement is an example of this and I would argue, fundamentalism in all its forms.
Messianic cults look to a singular person to save them from the situation. Oddly enough this seems to particularly afflict Americans who supposedly believe in equality.
Cargo cults arise when a superior civilization showers gifts and then disappears again as happened to Pacific Islands occupied by the Americans during and after WWII. There are people still hacking out runways in the jungles so the big silver birds will have a place to land and disgorge the abundance of the military BX once again.I personally think all of America is on a cargo cult mentality at the moment, now that the easy days are over.
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