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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Along the lines of Fructose's thinking, Anthropology (and Science Fiction) is full of examples of societies who suddenly encounter a civilization with a more advanced technology and a different belief system and can't handle it and disintegrate as a viable society. Just think of what happened to most Native Americans who somehow managed to survive. Some joined nativistic, messianic or cargo cults, many retreated to drugs and alcohol.
Of course after 150 or more years of just surviving, Native culture is on the rebound and they are doing it as I believe our larger society must, by bringing back those elements of the past that worked well and accepting the best of the new society. They are also adept at understanding the difference between science and symbol. They haven't revived the Sun Dances again because they believe anymore that if they don't do the dances the sun will disappear, but because of the sense of purpose, community solidarity, and satisfaction it gives them to have outlasted the BIA, the boarding schools and the missionaries, and still be here to celebrate. Some go to both sun dances and church.
I think something similar must happen in our society. Right now we are at the phase of nativism, messianism, and cargo cults on the one hand and a massively drugged society on the other. At some point if we are to survive, we too will have to figure out what of our past is worth saving and how to integrate that with the new scientific understanding, particularly of neurobiology. The new integration will never satisfy the hard core science types, but should result in a society that they at least feel more comfortable with.
This is not just an American phenomenon. Everywhere I go in Asia, people are wrestling with the same issues of how to reconcile tradition and modernity. The big advantage over here however, is that unlike the Abrahamic religions, the Asian ones never made exclusivist truth claims. That is a huge plus in the process.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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(1) "The world is a orderly system obeying mechanistic rules which (2) can be discovered, figured out, (3) even appreciated, valued, (4) by those who have the courage, imagination, and persistence to go on searching for them."
Aint going to happen:
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." - Hebrews 11:3
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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That's good Go-B, that's good!
Preach!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Then just follow the book of goodness for the rest of life, if you have a question, you frantically search for the appropriate verse, paste it some where, and you are saved from having to think on your own."
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind (change your way of thinking...why?---->), that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." - Romans 12:1-18
You see Dr. F,
God is not saying not to "think on your own" but to take your "gift," which he has given to you, by His grace (what you don't deserve because of your inherent sinful nature), and to serve the church effectively. Look at your responses and contrast them against what these verses are saying. You're approach and intentions are wrong is all. You're using your talents for the wrong purpose. No one is saying to stop "thinking." But God is saying to stop searching in "vain" (for nothing). And when you think about it, that's what all men's knowledge, without a purpose for God, is....for nothing, eternity without Him:
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15
If you're willing to take that chance, well, then, that's your choice. But we Christians are commanded to go and search for the lost, save and baptize them, just as Christ and other Christians did:
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." - Matthew 28:18-20
Praying for you Dr. F
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MH2
climber
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I too like the aptness many of the Einstein quotes to jstan's exchange with go-B.
An all-knowing all-powerful Supreme Being does not seem compatible with what we understand of quantum indeterminacy. And there is the caveat that a Supreme Being would also be incomprehensible, which seems downright unfair given all the other hard-to-grasp items in the job description of a Supreme Being. So maybe we must cut the Supreme Being, if Such there Be, some slack on the issue of compassion and mercy.
Anyway, there has been a lot of sweat spent in puzzling over omniscience and omnipotence. We observe that some people know more than others so we can make an inductive leap to the possibility of knowing everything.
To some, a Being who knows all prevents free will in the sense that before putting on your shirt in the morning you could choose one or another shirt. The Being knows what you are going to do, so the choice is determined and not freely made by you. Others say the Being simply knows what free choice you made.
Other discussions:
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=271762
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/52599-does-omniscience-limit-free-will/
From the above
I like the idea that multiple universes could be God's storage media for keeping track of what is going on in this universe, and the idea that although there is no way to decide if there is anything God-like out there (or in here, if you prefer), theologists who propose that God cannot be understood by Man nevertheless usually assign other attributes to God and that these attributes are the 'soft underbelly' of religion; statements that are open to question.
And a strange claim from a Wikipedia entry on omniscience: that having more than one omniscient omnipotent Being per universe is not allowed under quantum rules. Therefore...
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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MH2, at least it appears that you recongnize that there is a "God".
That's good.
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jstan
climber
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"theologists who propose that God cannot be understood by Man"
This is one of the self-apparent failures we force onto ourselves when we say god is all-powerful. If god is all-powerful then god created all the horrors we see all around us. What kind of god would create that?
We try to escape this by pleading we do not understand god. God causes us injury but due to a plan we cannot know.
Here, by implication we now assume god is NOT all-powerful. If god were all-powerful he would have made a plan that did not injure me.
We use sloppy thinking to have our cake and eat it too.
All for nothing. When has god's all-powerfulness done something in the real world that did you good?
So his all-powerfulness works only in our minds.
It is an imagining.
Imaginings are OK as long as they do not destroy our ability to use our minds properly.
This particular imagining is very destructive.
Almost without exception people chant to themselves that god will rescue them with his immense power as they put their neighbors to the sword.
If I were inclined to speak in biblical terms I would say the idea of an all-powerful god
is the work of Satan.
But I have seen no evidence for a Satan just as I have seen no evidence for a god.
What have I seen?
I see that each and every one of us is our own unique mixture of good and evil.
And when we let imaginings degrade our ability to use our minds, the balance tips precariously to the side of evil.
Seen another way:
If you benefit by having a god in your life, be understanding and be kind with him.
Don't insist he be all-powerful.
Give him a break.
For God's sake.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but can't this problem be avoided with the idea that God is all powerful but chooses to let the universe evolve on its own after the current laws of physics are put in place?
Or another possibility is that with multiple universes to manage, God sometimes hears prayers in this one and sometimes doesn't? Omniscient in any one universe but not in all at the same time?
Or that depending on our individual karma and state of consciousness, our prayers do or don't get through, but the burden is on us?
And if even by chance, something happens to save our lives and we caused it, we give thanks to God because it feels unseemly to thank ourselves when we were stupid enough to get in that life endangering position to begin with?
Of course these are all eastern ideas, not Abrahamic.
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
"Maybe I'm missing something here, but can't this problem be avoided with the idea that God is all powerful but chooses to let the universe evolve on its own after the current laws of physics are put in place?"
I have been placed in the position of having absolute and total power. Can I then say, "Uh. That's nice, but I am not going to use it"?
If you have power. You have power. That is why the framers of our constitution set a four year term of office for the chief executive. Going in, its end was already marked.
My understanding is the idea of parallel universes is a hypothesis, a trial solution, an anzatz. It is not something we place in our list of theorems and so are ready to build upon it.
Pate:
Thanks.
I am doing something new here. The idea is that a lot of the damage we do is caused not by our having a personal god. The damage is caused by our making completely unreasonable demands upon that god. Since the demands are unreasonable, we end up doing unreasonable things.
Rather like the climber who worships climbing but who ends up splatting.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Why do so many people believe in God?
Because we want so badly to believe that life goes on somehow after death.
That's why, pure and simple.
And so man created religion to provide the private rituals that reinforce
the notion that life after death is possible ONLY through indoctrination
and ritualistic practice of THAT particular religion.
There would be NO reason to believe in a god if there was not the hard wired
desire to believe in life after death. Take that out, no need for a god belief.
Sh#t happens, deal with it.
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jstan
climber
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"Sh#t happens, deal with it."
Something like this is probably going to be the new eastern thought of which Jan speaks. And she is right. It will not be possible here in the West.
Long before Pavlov, religionists had discovered positive reinforcement as a means of training animals to be obedient. Hope of perpetual life is, as Norton points out, one of the hooks used by religionists. The problem is, there is no perpetual life cookie to be given us when we are obedient. That is where scripture comes in. Using extensive training beginning at a very early age it is possible for a person to feel some strange sense of reward on hearing a passage from scripture for the hundred and eleventy thousandths time.
And there is your cookie.
Absent clarity of thought here in the West in all probability we are now entering into one or more centuries of Eastern primacy, as it once existed in Alexandria. A friend just back from three months in China told of a train ride. The train is supported from above and travelled at 200 mph, with hardly a sound. On a test run that same line has travelled at 300 mph. Cost to go 100 miles? 80 Yuan. About $10.
Here in the West, we are back to murder as a popular mode of communication.
After yesterday, tell me I am wrong.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oh but "free will" killed them, not a god.
God always gets a free pass, never held responsible for anything.
Because you don't want to say anything that could hurt your chances of
getting to heaven.
Better not think or say anything to piss her off.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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einstein is an interesting figure, not only for his tremendous pioneering in science, but at the personal level, frank about his thoughts and beliefs, and humble as well. he knew lots of people were looking to him for more than he was prepared to give. i sympathize with his agnosticism: keep the question open, it's a big question, don't slam the door on it. even einstein could be mistaken in his own bailiwick, physics, and he realized that.
having recently finished hilbert by constance reid, a book recommended here by ed hartouni, i've come to conjecture a few things about scientific personalities. hilbert and einstein have some interesting similarities. totally absorbed in their work, both made lousy fathers. einstein had his three children, one of them mysteriously lost, in a first, chaotic marriage. he subsequently found marital happiness--it's interesting to observe, as charles darwin did--in marriage to his first cousin.
not being judgmental here--hilbert and einstein, and darwin for that matter, were attractive people and i'm sure we'd all have delighted to have known them personally. but their lives became engrossed in a single mental dimension, if you will, to the neglect of other potential. here on this thread, we seem to have focused, broadly, on the realm of the spiritual. on other threads, we've crossed swords on subjects like the paranormal. i would suggest that science, for all its glories, is not leading us to a spiritual destiny. our religions, by the same token, don't do a very good job of it either. but i think it's important to keep sight of a common goal, and perhaps conclude that the big adventure is really still ahead for the human race.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan
I am doing something new here. The idea is that a lot of the damage we do is caused not by our having a personal god. The damage is caused by our making completely unreasonable demands upon that god. Since the demands are unreasonable, we end up doing unreasonable things.
Tony
i would suggest that science, for all its glories, is not leading us to a spiritual destiny. our religions, by the same token, don't do a very good job of it either. but i think it's important to keep sight of a common goal, and perhaps conclude that the big adventure is really still ahead for the human race.
Both worth repeating and remembering.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)"
This was the original post and after 5000+ posts, it is finally clear that this question, whether intended or not, really only applies to those that "believe in God." Sure, it's a open forum and opinions will continue, but how does a person answer that question that doesn't "believe in God?" What basis do they have other than unbelief?
Let's revitalizing the original question, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" by hearing from the select few of you believers and let us fellowship "one to another"!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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So, so beautiful and rich go-B! It makes so much sense that I am in awe of God even more. It was a long time of hurt, and hurting others but in the last four years I now understand more of who I am and my purpose in life than I ever was taught in the fourty five years prior. Thank God for the small taste of his Word!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Let's revitalizing the original question, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" by hearing from the select few of you believers and let us fellowship "one to another"!
This is the real problem in my opinion - that certain types of believers automatically assume that other believers will think and feel the same way they do about the subject and naturally want to fellowship.
There are many views of God even among those who base their belief on the Bible. Otherwise we wouldn't have over 500 denominations of Protestants alone.
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jstan
climber
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"that certain types of believers automatically assume that other believers will think and feel the same way they do about the subject"
And if they do not we have a "clash of civilizations"
Lots of death.
Very little civilization.
The individuals on both sides get the pleasure of rapture.
I'm guessing most of the suicide bombers go out in a blaze of rapture.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 10, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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BRIAN ENO
"Bone Bomb"
My
Body
So
Thin
So
Tired
Beaten
For
Years
Ploughshare
To
Bomb
So
Hard
Bone
Bomb
Bone
Bomb
Bone
Bomb
My
Town
So
Dusty
So
Dry
Buildings
Pushed
Over
Lives
Heaped
Together
Young
Girls
Dreaming
Of
Beautiful
Deaths
Popstar
Pictures
Above
Their
Beds
Above
Their
Heads
Troops
Everything
Stolen
Except
My
Bones
Now
I
Am
Only
Bone
I
Waited
For
Peace
And
Here
Is
My
Peace
Here
In
This
Still
Last
Moment
Of
My
Life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxY6NLVQaPc
"Bone Bomb" was inspired by a newspaper story about a Palestinian girl who becomes a suicide bomber. On the same page there was an article by a Israeli doctor who explained that wounds from the scenes of suicide bombs are often caused by tiny fragments of the bomber's bones, which embed themselves like shrapnel in the people around.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 10, 2011 - 11:07am PT
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"Free will" means critical thinking.
Independent freedom to use and develop your God given intelligence.
Atheists are the drones that rely on their own defective mental speculations to think.
It must be this? No maybe like this? No later that's not how it's like. Oh wait there's new data now it's wrong again so it must be like this? And so on.
Spinning wheels must go round ... :-)
There is "Perfection"
The word is in your dictionary even.
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