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jstan
climber
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I'll try.
God has been on both sides of just about every war that has been fought. People go into these things convinced their all-powerful god will pull them out if it goes badly.
I am not arguing against war here. In a war both sides put everything they have onto the table.
When they do this it is best if people are thinking clearly.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes
Many people pray in war time and other times for various reasons.
When those prayers are not answered in the way they want then they sometimes become atheists.
God is not ones order supplier ever .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Agreed jstan.
This goes along with the philosophy that there is a God whom we can know by looking at the workings of the universe, including the life on this planet (the Prime Mover scientist's God if they have one) and then putting ourselves in tune with it.
We don't ask God to help us but rather ask how we can align ourselves with this natural order in the best possible way (and I would argue war is not the best possible way). We help ourselves by acting in harmony with nature/God and even improving on it if our motivation is compassion rather than Darwinian tooth and claw.
Actually I think that is what Gobee is trying to say, it's just that he relies on a particular book rather than nature, his own feelings, reasoning, meditation or science??
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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it seems we don't understand
language is composed of word symbols representing what we understand
so if we don't understand, why should we expect words to provide adequate explanation?
granted it is very interesting to speculate and discuss
or otherwise, since important mysteries are very uncomfortable; to seize upon unfounded assumptions and thus blindly build a concept of reality based upon them
perhaps the word 'god' is a placeholder for aspects of reality that are not understood
it's all about awareness
and we have much to learn
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jstan
climber
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Virtually every person will do that with which they have been successful and comfortable with in the past. Sometimes this works in the daily struggle we make each day to become better. Sometimes it does not.
It is always essential to admit someone may well be right, when that is the case. But the receipt of such should never be a goal. The goal is always to focus as clearly as one can on the center. On the core.
The core I am trying to focus on here is that we do ourselves great disservice when we expect more of a god than we ourselves are able to deliver. You meet a god of love - with love. You meet a forgiving god - with forgiveness.
We do not need a god more powerful than ourselves.
Edit:
The satisfaction one gets from believing in a god depends critically upon one also believing that god is all-powerful. That is what I am hearing. Otherwise why the insistence?
Desire for power is at the root of belief then. Very substantial evidence exists for this over the millennia but one yet hopes.
Very sad.
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WBraun
climber
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We do not need a god more powerful than ourselves.
How would you know ...... ?
Material Nature which is the inferior external energy of God is still more powerful than ourselves than what to speak of the Lord himself.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons' - Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk
Dolphins have been declared the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as “non-human persons”.
we are not the only intelligent people
look how long it took us just to give the vote to women of our own species
my perceptive son was nearly drummed out of grade school for insisting on defending the mice people
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MH2
climber
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go-B:
"Cheers, we'all got each other think'n!
Thanks Brothers!"
Amen to that, brother go-B.
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jstan
climber
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Thanks for the Einstein link Tony. In slightly different words Einstein says, below, what I have been trying get at.
“Why do you write to me ‘God should punish the English’? I have no close connection to either one or the other. I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him.”
Albert Einstein, letter to Edgar Meyer, a Swiss colleague, January 2, 1915; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 201.
Probably useful to note here that WWI was fast approaching in 1915 when Einstein made this observation. War and gods always seem to be joined at the hip.
Becoming persuaded god does not exist is not the central point however. The central point is to cease giving powers to that entity that are belied just by reading a newspaper. If one wants to have a god, take care to construct a credible one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Well, I would like to see the concept of "free will" discussed.
This seems to be the core defense of why the Guy in the Sky refuses to
intervene and stop the endless torture, murder, and suffering.
How does prayer work exactly?
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jstan
climber
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Norton:
It is a very old subject and if you dig into it, it is indistinguishable from a supertopo thread that has been going on for thousands of years.
The whole issue of whether beings can have the power to make their own decisions, and face their own consequences, in the presence of an all-powerful god misses the point.
If the god is all powerful then that god created people who were designed to make bad decisions.
If you make an all-powerful god, no matter how one uses words, that god cannot be absolved of the the responsibility for what he created. Empty verbiage.
No one has come up with a reason why we even want all-powerful gods. If this goes on without being addressed one has to conclude we don't wish to pull it out into the open.
It must be very ugly.
One might say in this reluctance we are working hand in glove with
Satan.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: "free" will or "free will"
That was/is my work, Norton. The facts are, many people myself included have worked it out already. Pages ago, I tried to get you guys in dialog about so-called "free will" - its different forms and definitions - the role language plays in the bruhahah, etc. - to see what might spring from it - but to no avail. Discourse on the thread quickly lapsed back into chapter and verse. Tsk.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: solution to free will
jstan-
Step one on getting a grip on the subject of free will is to quit mixing it up with "God" particularly Jehovah. -Which is just what the theologians (of Abrahamic theology) want you to do.
Traditional theology brings with it a complicated mix (of story and subject entities). Set the whole shebang aside. Science provides all the understanding one needs today to come to terms with "free will" in the context of ability, powers, of living things.
But those without the education and familiarity with the subjects will continue unabated to mix them up, muck them up, all together.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Oh, that tired old statement...
"the debate of X is hundreds to thousands of years old"
plays right into the hands of religious leaders and their flock, too, who desire to persist in the bygone status quo. If you want to make progress, or share it, try to leave it behind, try to reframe the subjects and issues for once. Moreover, try to think strategically. As there are different parties, sides, in these ongoing battles of ideas and beliefs.
It's a new age now. Because of the sciences, science education. All sorts of 1000 year-old ideas and superstitions and models (mental and belief models) for how things work have fallen by the wayside.
So, too, it already has for so-called "free" will. Only those persisting (stuck) in the Abrahamic narrative or those who don't know the subject (e.g., through study) do not know this.
.....
From another perspective, only the inertia of pop culture (umpteen millions in biomass, tonage, now the world over) keeps us from gaining the higher understanding more quickly. Tsk.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Let's face it, I think even some of you "atheists" relish the Abrahamic narrative, where would you be without it? Naked? Unroped? Cold? Directionless?
Nothing to frame your "atheism" against.
Nothing to anchor your "atheism" against. Untethered. Unroped.
Oh, the horror!
"I think even some of you "atheists" relish the Abrahamic narrative..."
I mean, really, how quirky is that?
I mean, is it not MORE exciting to carry on, if not rant, against Satan and demons and succubi and those who persist in a three-layer-cake version of the world than to dig deep on the subjects of free will, for instance, and mortality? -With the aim to get a full grip on them (and other subjects) and then to move forward? Are not the subjects of the Abrahamic bibles way more colorful, dramatic, etc., esp with all the images pertaining to God and Satan and Jesus on internet Google now available to post up. Let's get real. Lets face it. It's human nature, here.
Food for thought.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Here it is:
(1) The world is a orderly system obeying mechanistic rules which (2) can be discovered, figured out, (3) even appreciated, valued, (4) by those who have the courage, imagination, and persistence to go on searching for them.
(adapted from Tony's link to Einstein stuff)
How succinct is that! ;)
.....
But I loved this one:
“I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”
Einstein
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jstan
climber
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Good to hear that HFC. Hope you don't mind my addressing you in the familiar.
To understand Abrahamaic stories, at all, I think you have to realize living in the middle east 2000 years ago was, in some ways. like living in East LA. You can be walking down the street and someone like a member of a gang can cut you down for no reason with "justice" never even being attempted. The "wrong place at the wrong time" story. Or your landlord drives your family into the street for no cause. A whim or he found someone who would provide more profit.
People must have been desperate for some way to make sense of their lives and also desperate for the "belief" someone powerful was interested in "justice."
As we descend even further into a corporatocracy even the formation of a nobility here in the US becomes possible. If it has not already happened.
Absent a rededication of our people to critical thinking
we may only guess at what the future will bring.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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100 per cent agree.
I cannot tell you the number of times over several decades now I've appreciated the Abrahamic narrative for its range of abilities in addressing human needs.
On many levels, it IS the "greatest story ever told".
On many levels, it IS the greatest life strategy - or system of life strategies - ever worked out.
IMO.
.....
But now it is time to step out, to move past it, to move on. In the interest of 21st century adaptation. In the interest of best practices in the practice of 21st century living.
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