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jstan
climber
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Dr. F:
Actually not slow at all. I knew Go-Be was a fair minded sincere person. So the both of us might learn from a dialog.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Now I do not agree with the Pope on everything that is for sure (I'm Protestant), however, I do agree with him in this regard . . .
God was behind Big Bang, pope says
'The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40945242/ns/technology_and_science-science/#
Science is about Cosmic Order, the search for truth through the physical and empirical, and answers What and How questions. Science is a wonderful tool.
Religion, Philosophy, Logic are about Cosmic Purpose, the search for truth through the spiritual and reasoning, and answer Who and Why questions.
Both are searches for truth. Both are very important human endeavors.
In the end they become one. As we get closer to the light of truth, they both converge and get closer and closer together. One day Science and Faith will be one. They will completely agree in all accounts.
"Read The Science of GOD" by PhD Gerald Schroeder. Science and The Word of GOD are in agreement. Theistic Evolution.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 7, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
jstan
Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
"Is God all-powerful?"
Yes, but He stay's true to His word, (Himself), and His covenant!
Jstan
Good. Now another question.
Is God also all-knowing?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
"Is God also all-knowing?"
Yes!
Jstan:
Excellent.
Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
"Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?"
Yes!
Genesis 1:1 In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...
Indeed.
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Jstan
Edit
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Yes!
Genesis 1:27, So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
jstan
Does this all-knowing all-powerful God who created each and everyone of us sometimes find it necessary to consign some to writhing for an eternity in the flames of Hell?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
"Does this all-knowing all-powerful God who created each and everyone of us sometimes find it necessary to consign some to writhing for an eternity in the flames of Hell?"
No, If God tells us all we need to know and do to avoid hell, did not we ourselves?
Jstan:
But if God were all-knowing and all-powerful when he created us, he knew how it would end for us, and to avoid having to send us to Hell he could have simply changed how he created us. Being all-powerful, it would have been easy.
We place a huge burden of responsibility on a god when we imagine they are all-powerful and all- knowing. Do we not?
I would not have blamed god at all if when god was nominated for the post he had said he would do it only on the condition either the all-knowing or the all-powerful had to be dropped from his job description.
If it were you, would you not have insisted upon this? I think you would.
Now let me, humbly, ask myself what I would do were I offered the post.
I would have asked myself which of the two stories below might most powerfully inspire people in their struggle each and every day to treat each other well and to express fully all the generousity, compassion and forgiveness of which each of us is capable.
The story of a courageous man, no different from you or I who is willing to lose even his own life in his struggle to help people of his day learn to value each other more highly. And to undertake this struggle against hopeless odds and dangerous forces, just as you and I do even today. (Each of us gets to chose the name of this man.)
Or the story of an all-powerful entity who creates men he knows beforehand are so flawed he will have to consign some to the flames for eternity. Knowing even at their creation it was perfectly within his power to create people who would not need to face this fate?
It is a choice between heroism - and raw power.
Go-Be, this very day each one of us continues the struggle described above.
The struggle has not changed in the slightest.
It has been a pleasure talking to you.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Does prayer work? Does God relent?
Exodus 32:11, But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.
Psalm 106:45, For their sake he remembered his covenant, and relented according to the abundance of his steadfast love.
Jeremiah 15:6, You have rejected me, declares the Lord; you keep going backward, so I have stretched out my hand against you and destroyed you— I am weary of relenting.
Jeremiah 18:8, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 18:10, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 26:3, It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds.
Jeremiah 26:13, Now therefore mend your ways and your deeds, and obey the voice of the Lord your God, and the Lord will relent of the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
Joel 2:13, and rend your hearts and not your garments.” Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.
Joel 2:14, Who knows whether he will not turn and relent, and leave a blessing behind him, a grain offering and a drink offering for the Lord your God?
Jonah 3:9, Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.”
Jonah 3:10, When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
Jonah 4:2, And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster.
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WBraun
climber
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Jstan said:
"But if God were all-knowing and all-powerful when he created us, he knew how it would end for us, and to avoid having to send us to Hell he could have simply changed how he created us. Being all-powerful, it would have been easy."
It starts out with "but if"
That's guessing. Doesn't work at all with God Almighty.
Otherwise you would be supreme, God himself. No we're subordinate.
You need to ask him the questions not guess and make statements.
That would constitute a made up religion and you'll mislead yourself and everyone else.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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There's more than one way to parse a "but if."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The prayer for life is never answered. Ultimately all living entities experience death; it is the inevitable distinguished thing. If Christian prayer worked there would be 2000 year old men who would testify to the veracity of such prayer,
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jstan
climber
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Werner:
I structured the dialog along the lines you and I learned in plane geometry. Four hundred years before christ the Greeks created the process for mathematical proof that we use today. The "but if" prefaced something that all parties to the discussion had accepted. The words were used to make clear the presence of an essential contradiction.
The dialog was also structured entirely to eliminate all inclination by either party to confuse in the hopes of scoring points. Go-B did his part like the real trooper he is.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I wish Juan was still here living and posting.
He seemed like a very thoughtful and nice person.
I miss him.
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WBraun
climber
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The presence of an essential contradiction.
Yes excellent Jstan.
We have now come to an incredible crux.
Since God created us in his image we must have some independence although not infinitesimal.
Thus through our limited independent free will we can choose and he desires to see where we so want to go.
Otherwise there would be no meaning to unlimited and thus no such thing as ever fresh, meaning, (unconditional pure love) ....
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jstan
climber
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Werner:
So you say God is conducting an experiment and accepting failure when God has the power to assure success?
He is all-knowing so he already knows the result of the experiment.
There is no reason to perform an experiment, provided god is well meaning.
Are we challenging his intention now?
The bible is naught but a deception?
But why would god deceive? He is all-powerful and needs no deception to achieve what he wants.
When a god is all powerful, what he wants JUST IS.
That's what I meant when I said we place a huge burden on a god when we imagine they are all-powerful.
Whatever exists around us - is exactly what that god wants.
Pretty grim implications, Eh?
"Free will" was dreamed up relatively recently when the challenge raised here first arose, I don't know. Less than a thousand years ago?
Does it wash? I guess it washes if I can be burned at the stake when some Schmoo decides I need to go.
Is this where we want to go again?
It really comes down to a simple question.
What does imagining a god is all-powerful do for us? We dreamed this up after all..
Why did we dream it up?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Cheers, we'all got each other think'n!
Thanks Brothers!
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WBraun
climber
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There's no experiment except ours.
There's no deception as he instructs the correct method always before one acts.
Just as the child who wants to stick his finger in the moving fan and is adamant to do so.
Out of love you let him.
But first you instruct him of the consequences.
Then still he insists.
So you pull the plug and and fan will have slowed down enough to provide only the required action so he can learn.
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jstan
climber
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What you say cannot be challenged if you do one thing.
Agree that god is not all-powerful.
Given that, all manner of twistings and turnings are no longer necessary. And a lot of what we see around us also begins to make sense.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes, God can be challenged.
You can challenge him, but you will fail ultimately, other wise you would be God, Supreme.
God is all powerful.
If you can't understand that, then that will be your ultimate search as to why.
That is critical thinking not that you blindly believe.
One must have complete practical understanding, why this is so ....
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jstan
climber
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Werner, as I have said many times I have yet to see any real data on earth suggesting a god has done anything here.
If you were to pray hard and document both your prayer and that you wished to grow an additional appendage, when you had grown the desired appendage I would listen up. I would however suggest we do an experiment with people all over the world praying to different gods asking for an additional appendage. Even were only a portion of these people to grow that for which they had asked, you would find a lot of people becoming very interested.
I am trying to help the people who believe a god exists. God does not need to be all-powerful. Indeed I am amazed god agreed to take that job. People need only look about and see all the mayhem around us, to begin to wonder just what kind of all-powerful god they have got.
Being all-powerful is just not a good way to go.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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What's wrong with seeing God as all powerful but also self restraining? Like a martial artist who could kill with one blow but never strikes the first blow no matter how provoked? It's not a way that I think about God but I'm just saying......
To me, rather than worry about God and make 2,000 cc. naked ape brain statements about the infinite and eternal, it makes more sense to me to look within and ask how I can align myself with the principles of nature and later, how I can operate at the high end of human potential. This puts the burden on me rather than God (in Asia it's called paying attention to your karma), and allows me to use the reasoning powers I have rather than relying on a book.
I understand that some people like the structure of a book or an institution or the logical process. When I think of God however, I think of mystery, love, and beauty, not logic ??
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jstan
climber
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"What's wrong with seeing God as all powerful but also self restraining?"
Not a thing. Since god is self restraining( to your knowledge) the power will never be used. If it is never going actually to be used, then you are imagining it for your own purposes.
That was my question. Why do people want to believe their god is all-powerful?
There has to be a reason.
Is it just a matter of "My rabbit is bigger than your rabbit!"
(I know that would not be Jan's reason.)
Jan's next paragraph cuts to the heart of what we all try to work toward every day. Some like to think a "god" is traveling that road beside them. Others, not so much.
Same difference.
The proof is in the pudding.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F
Then don't search. Be done with it. Simple as that.
There's no God according to you and all those who align themselves with such a belief.
Instead you keep wasting your time trying to convince yourself you're right and the go-bees of the world are all wrong.
You're the same as them only on the other side of the coin.
How stupid is that .....
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