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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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Yeah! We should bolt Pine Line. Some of those gear placements are probably tough for a 5' 7" climber!! You don't want them placing from a bad stance!!!
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:49am PT
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Once again. The alternative is probably not to have a section with mandatory free climbing but to have a situation with hammering in new copperheads once in a while. Most climbers would probably not even encounter any difference because it is fixed anyway.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:25am PT
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Their ascents are now deemed null and void.
The thread is now closed!!!
I'm gonna watch television now.
It's the American way.
I busted a gut with that one. Thanks for the dose Duck.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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You know, the Bachar-Yerian still has some mandatory free climbing on it, as least from what I can gather from my armchair. Someone should take care of that before it starts to snow.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 22, 2015 - 08:04am PT
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i don't think that section on the nose had copperheads. If I'm remembering right and the bolt in question is the one I'm thinking of than the crux it bypasses is an approximate 3" x 3" pod that's also 3" deep. Could be pin scrarred as mentioned but I don't know what would've fit in there bitd maybe a stove leg?
It's shallow so a cam is tricky to place. Maybe a tri-cam would work better?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 22, 2015 - 08:09am PT
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On the Kor roof Washington Column nobody could reach Kor's bolts except stretch.
So when a couple were added nobody objected except ....????
Who???
Bring a cheater stick was the only alternative
I lead the roof BITD, and it was impressive to see the original spacing. Couldn't have done it without a cheater or the hanging tat, and that humbled me, as it should have.
Just like taking a deer path to a "hidden" crag, where now there are signs with carabiners on them. I suppose it's progress, but I can't help feeling that something has been lost.
In Santa Cruz, old houses that have historic significance are deemed Historic, and if you own such a house, you must remodel in a way that keeps the character of the original. With a route put up by Kor, I would think (and hope) the same principles would apply.
As for hardware, I'm all for upgrading to the new standards in bolting. If you're going to replace a rivet, why not use 3/8" metal, it lasts longer, and I agree with Sloan's POV here. But I disagree with increasing the hole count, and if it's a rivet ladder, maybe leave the hangers off to preserve the original feel.
The other stuff is sticky. Comfortizing, both on free routes and on aid, will always be a battle. There are plenty of folks who think that climbing should be as much fun as possible, with much of the danger removed. It'll take diligence to crown certain routes as Historic in hopes of keeping them from being comfortized.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 09:16am PT
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i don't think that section on the nose had copperheads.
You might be correct. I don't remember much of the pitch. I thought that I have read about some copperheads on that pitch but I can't find it now. The only thing I found were
"A few new 3/8" bolts grace this pitch along with some VERY ratty old fixed nuts and pins/bongs."
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Erik Sloan
Big Wall climber
Yosemitebigwall.com
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Oct 22, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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Wow, this thread has really taken off. Cool. Unfortunately I don't have time to read through all this, proally till the weekend.
I didn't add any of the bolts on the Salathe. Only climbed that awesome route once. I just mentioned that that climb has tons of new bolts, and that everyone is happy about them, as an example.
Keep it classy folks.
Woot!
E
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 22, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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It's 522 posts saying the same 3 things over and over again, I think you got the gist of it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Keep it classy folks.
Words YOU should live by regarding your retro-bolting perspective.
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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Sorry GEEDavis I don't think he has the gist of shit
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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I just realized that I thought about pitch 4 (I believe that I climbed pitch 2 and 3 together)... I also found the thread above and got my copperhead/fixed gear understanding from that thread.
I don't think I had any problem at all aiding that pitch but that can be due to fix gear or my red alien.
My point though, that is probably not very relevant to pitch 3 on the nose, is that old fixed gear on clean routes are not that good and a rivet or bolt might be a better solution to that.
One good example is lurking fear when I climbed it. Mostly straight forward clean aid but with one short section of number 1 heads. The heads are not going to last forever and clean aiding that section would be impossible. I also believe that the heads would be quite difficult to place but that is just a guess. A rivet or maybe a bolt might be a better solution than having everyone using fixed heads that are going to break someday.
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Mark Not-circlehead
climber
Martinez, CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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Can someone please show me the federal statute that gives the authority for first ascentionists to "own" a section of a cliff, into perpetuity?
Climbing is an artificial activity. It doesn't provide food, shelter, or reproduction. It's essentially entertainment for us humans.
If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
No one "owns" a route. And if we can't agree on our own arbitrary rules, some non climber will create the rules for us.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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WOOT!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:37am PT
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as for bolt ladders, I just see them as a means to get through sections that are in between fun climbing
As mentioned earlier in this thread, different people find different things to be fun.
Some people like to climb steep, very run-out, difficult slab climbing, using invisible friction holds. I don't think that is fun, at all.
Meanwhile, I find standing super-tall on a super-steep wall, whether on pins, heads, hooks, rivets or dowels, and trying maintain balance in gusting wind conditions to be fun, if a bit unnerving and exasperating.
So, for some freaks, like me, climbing up a well-crafted bolt ladder can be part of the Big Wall Fun. Clipping up a ladder of belay bolts 3-feet apart is not so fun.
I think the main thing I have taken from this spirited exchange is to recognize that 3/8 buttonheads are better than 1/4" buttonheads for rivet ladders. A few belay bolts, here and there, along a bolt ladder is not the worst thing in the world. Some younger climbers think it's OK to retrobolt past existing piton cracks. Many older climbers agree with me that it's not OK to retrobolt past existing piton cracks.
At any rate, it seems like there is some degree of convergence in this controversy. The people at both ends of the spectrum have apparently been coming closer together, with respect to agreeing what should, or should not be done to existing climbing routes.
This is awesome!
It is so awesome, I have created a useful graphic, to document the whole energetic affair.
You know they haven't laid hands on the Captain since since Reagan was in the White House and the Soviet Union was still a country.
You are attempting to speak with absolute authority from a position of complete ignorance.
Many of us from the crustancient "Don't Retrobolt" class here have climbed on El Capitan during Obama's term in office, as well as when Reagan was in office. And, most likely, will do it again after Obama leaves office.
Perhaps what you meant to say was,
You know, they have been laying hands on the Captain since before Reagan was in the White House, and are still going up. Awesome!
The fact that there is some confusion about the exact location of Nanook's admitted extra bolt on the 3rd pitch of the Nose doesn't negate the "Don't Retrobolt" argument, it argues in favor of not retrobolting. It is difficult to determine which bolts on a route have been recently added. This renders the "just don't clip it, brah" alledged solution largely unworkable. And it also renders the "just chop it, brah" alleged solution equally unworkable.
The real solution is to not retrobolt, or, if you must, please restrain yourself as much as possible, and do it as little as possible.
Pretend retrobolting is like smacking your dog around when you're pissed off at him. It's not a great thing to do, and you really shouldn't do it, at all. But, if he really, really needs it, only smack him around a little bit.
Smacking the ever-living hell out of your dog, all the time, every time you interact with him, is going to create problems later, for you and the community at large.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Oct 22, 2015 - 10:17am PT
I don't think the "Original Intent" folks are going to win out, in the end. That essentially relegates all El Cap routes to Museum status. Subsequent generations of climbers are not going to recognize the (false) authority of the FA team.
DMT
They already lost. Welcome to America's largest peg board.
WOOT!!!!
Just watch out for the sh#t bags, falling haul bags, and annoying d0uche bags.
edit: ~~~
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overwatch
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Is it irony or just desserts that the young guys are on the old guys for being old more than the old guys are on the young guys for being young? Guys like Crusty Cur; it is all they got.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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If you want a bolt...add one
If you don't like a bolt...chop one.
Big effing deal....only thing that gets "damaged" by bolts are Ego's......Rock actually can't be harmed or destroyed, only changed from one state to another (take a high school physics class if you don't believe me...).
This is precisely the root of the problem with this "progressive" thinking. If every climber thought this way we would be the worst user group on the planet. Of course rock can be destroyed, to say it can't is ridiculous.
We all agree that no single person "owns" the rock. We all share it. That's why these discussions are so important, IMO.
Around 2003 I was climbing Shortest Straw with my brother and he got stuck on a move on the second pitch. I had just climbed the route the previous season and couldn't figure out why he was having trouble. Especially since he's 4" taller than me. I finally had to rap to the ground, find a branch, rig a stick clip and jug back up.
I kept thinking he was just missing something but when I cleaned the pitch it was different. The bolts had changed positions and sure enough, it was about 18" out of reach. I thought it VERY odd and continued our ascent.
Back on the ground we ran into Erik, who asked us about the route and specifically about the second pitch. He informed us that the had rearranged the bolt spacing. I told him it was f-d up now and that it was unreachable.
He looked puzzled and just said, "really?"
"Yeah, why didn't you just use the same holes? Didn't you at least stand on the piece below to see if you could reach it?"
Erik, you probably don't remember but you just gave me this mischievous grin and said, "I was making it better".
That statement from you really resonated and was the moment I really knew something was wrong.
What gives you the right to make routes "better"?
I made two conclusions with this one experience.
1) you're going to do whatever you want up there regardless of what others think.
2) you didn't put a lot of thought in what you did. (where you were placing bolts)
I stated up-thread that you are a decent guy with lots of great qualities. I stand by that. Nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes. We should all keep an open mind and learn from our mistakes and from each other.
I wish you would take in consideration what the vast majority of climbers are asking from you. At this point I don't think the size of the bolts are the bigger issue.
We just want you to keep true to the hole count.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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What gives you the right to make routes "better"?
Nuff said!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 22, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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This controversy apparently will continue as long as we use bolts in climbing. Anyone reading the introduction to Roper's 1964 (red) A Climber's Guide to Yosemite Valley should recognize all the arguments. In that introduction, Roper said that while anybody has a "right" to place or remove a bolt, ethical considerations matter. One should not remove bolts from a popular beginner's climb because of finding and using an A5 crack nearby, nor should one add bolts to a difficult aid climb because he or she can't (really won't) do it without the bolts. As he said (from my memory, so may be mere paraphrase): "Not every climb is for every person. Ethically, this is correct, but excess bolts can make this a paradox."
I should say, though, that adding bolts to existing routes never seemed to stop. Robbins placed 8 bolts on In Cold Blood when he made the first ascent in 1970. When we climbed it less than three years later, there were already at least that many more added. Most of the added ones were "chicken bolts," but I didn't bypass any of them in part because I was lazy and quite terror-averse, but also because the idea of not enlarging pin scars was already taking hold. I'm quite certian, however, that I would not have placed a new bolt, because I had already led A4 pitches with ground fall potential, and was quite confident (maybe overconfident) of my ability.
I think if big walls remained largely pin placing marathons, we would treat "offending" non-original bolts the same way we sould treat glue-on holds - we'd get rid of them. But increased climbing population and the destruction we created placing pitons, even with our relatively small numbers, forced us to change our style. For most climbs now, we don't measure the climbers' competence by just the number of bolts they used, but by the difficulty of the free and aid climbing they did.
That doesn't mean that we should give retro-bolters a free hand, though. Adding bolts to most of the Apron or Cathedral Rocks climbs would change the character of the game too much for my taste, and I would hope that any bolts added (as opposed to being replaced) would get the chop. Similarly, a few extra bolts can turn A5 to A2. Do we really have the right to "improve" a route when we change the level of leading (or following on traverses) commitment? For a lot of us, that commitment is part of the skill set of climbing.
John
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