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WBraun
climber
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Don't believe anything without testing it first ......
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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you see what you want in islam, ID, and project into christianity what you please. jihad is popularly known in the west as "holy war", but a better translation would be "righteous struggle," a lot like what christians says jesus did (muslims say mohammed did too), and their own supposedly righteous struggles as his followers.
"onward christian, er, bonington ..."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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You know, I sure miss elcap-pics and wish he would visit threads like these more. No doubt his posts would raise the grade level. So get this, here he is, from an ancient thread, responding to Trippy7 or ID4Jesus:
"Sorry Bro... don't believe in the Devil either. Did you know that a survey recently found that 25% of americans believe that the devil is actually a little creature that comes out of the ground to cause trouble? Amazing!!
Sorry but I don't believe in the power of Prayer either. So many go unanswered ... Prayer makes no sense to me. Either there is no god and it is thus useless or there is a god and it is still useless...
Here is why.
You believe that god is all knowing and powerful.. right?
So, even though you have free will, god still knows what is going to happen to you in the future... if he didn't then he wouldn't be all knowing now would he.. right? In fact you believe that god already knows if I will be "saved" or not. He knows what you are thinking and what I am thinking, according to your beliefs ... right? And you believe that god knows far more about my situation that you do. You believe that god is perfect and never makes mistakes... right?
You have confidence that god will do the right thing, because of course what ever he does is always the right thing and you can't tell him anything that he doesn't already know anyway. Right? So your prayer is not going to influence him in the least because he already knows if I am going to be "saved" or not. And because he already knows then he is powerless to change that or that would mean he didn't really know the situation in the first place and that is, as you know, impossible.
In fact the very idea of you telling him what he should do is in a way a statement from you that you don't think he can handle the situation without your input. Or that he doesn't already know that you.. say..hope I am saved. So by asking him to do something you are really saying that he needs to be told what is going on. He already knows what is going on so you are wasting your time. God can figure things out without your input, unless of course you think he can't... then by all means... pray on Bro!
I will take my chances with god. I am perfectly confident he is a myth and nothing more.
I have tried these discussions with the religious in the past in hopes of finding some rational to their beliefs. It never works. Religion is not rational. I was educated as an engineer and taught Physics and mathematics for 30 years... as such I taught critical thinking and problem solving. I think that reason and scientific proof is the best way to understand the universe. So I am always asking for proof and reasons and the religious, like yourselves, have none of that to offer in the final analysis. You believe without such tools. I can't. I find these topics interesting but quickly tiring .... as you yourselves do.
I think I have heard what you have to say and none of it meets my criteria. Of course none of what I have to say meets yours either. So life goes on ... and know that hate has no place in my life. In fact that is one dagger that would be best left unthrown, as it is unproductive in an argument... argument meaning an exchange of ideas not an emotional response of anger.
Thanks for your input.... no personal offense meant and none taken. Good luck!"
.....
A candle in the dark. For sure. Where are you elcap-pics? :)
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jstan
climber
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"Please do not lay genocide at the feet of Christ.
He had nothing to do with it. Many atrocities are done in Christ's name. Many atrocities are done in GOD's name.
He has nothing to do with it."
But
But
God is all powerful.
By god's inaction, god becomes a co-conspirator.
God is equally guilty. as though the knife were in god's own hand.
I love it how god's being all-powerful gets trotted out sometimes and not other times.
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WBraun
climber
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HFCS -- "I find these topics interesting but quickly tiring .... as you yourselves do."
I'm never tired, my energy increases exceptionally with every thought on the Supreme absolute truth.
That is the proof that God exists.
The mundaners like you are limited by beginning and end, birth and death .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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What, are you trying to get a rise out of me you old Rascal? Where are you quoting me from? Or perhaps you've got me confused with one of your other heroes, hahaha.
Oh, I see. You quoted elcap-pics. That's elcap-pics, not me, read more slowly, comprehensively next time.
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WBraun
climber
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See ... I got YOU to read comprehensively ......
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Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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100% of Truckers surveyed will NOT shake your hand if you introduce yourself as Satan.
So far......The survey continues.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Toni, you're still stretching things with Sagan.
a quote's a quote, huffy. sagan believed that once. he believed a lot more when he wrote contact than he did when he wrote demon-haunted world. sagan is like any prophet, yours, mine or gobee's. we cherry-pick what we want from these suckers. gobee and norton use the same prophets--you and i ought to be able to quote sagan to our purposes.
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thanks, jstan, for reiterating my gripe. jesus claims to be a good shepherd, but his many flocks stray confusedly and erringly across the wide world. better he should have been a good cowboy and known how to ride herd.
I'm never tired, my energy increases exceptionally with every thought on the Supreme absolute truth.
look out for werner. he ain't
NEVER GONNA DIE!!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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"pretty much" but not even close...nice try Tony. "allah" is not the God that's in my KJV! The top of the "ladder rung" in islam is "jihad," according to the Ko'ran. God forbid! Your ignorance SCREAMS.
Again, although you just keep denying this, "Allah" is simply the Aramaic word for "God".. it is the same God that Jesus prayed to, that of the God of Abraham. Even modern Christians who speak Aramaic call God, "Allah", as AGAIN, it's the word for God in that language.
Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[3] The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#Christianity
See, the thing is, since this does NOT fit with what you "want" to believe, you deny and ignore this. So, what would you tell the Christians who only speak Aramiac? That they are wrong?
Mulims worship the same God of Abraham, which is the same God as Jesus worshipped, but NOT the same God that you worship, as you worship Jesus. Then, you delude yourself into believing that he IS God.
See, these are the things that you deny and ignore...
Jesus:
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come." (Mark 13:32-33)
So, how can Xians believe that Jesus is God (a la the Trinity), if even He isn't privy to what 1/3rd of Him knows?
Oh, wait... I already know that... Selective interpretation, rat6ionalization, and delusion.
Looks like, if there was any devinity involved here with Jesus, Arius was right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Lastly, "your KJV", is a terribly edited and even twisted text, written in the early 1600s, with the explicite direction of King James I that it align with the beliefs of the Church Of England, which had split from the Cathies since the Kings didn't want to be subserviant to the Popes. (I.e., don;t like the religion, then just rewrite it to your liking)
de·lu·sion
a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
ra·tion·al·ize
to invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc., that are actually based on other causes
to ascribe (one's acts, opinions, etc.) to causes that superficially seem reasonable and valid but that actually are unrelated to the true, possibly unconscious and often less creditable or agreeable causes.
faith
strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason
allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause
Or, if you prefer:
Let's look at Phil. 1:27 & 2 Thess. 2:13
It shows that "faith" is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.
Consider that for a second: "Persuasion of the mind"
But just because the mind has been persuaded doesn't make it true, does it? Worse, the persuaded mind becomes convinced that it is true, to the point that it is "resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact", thus inspiring a "strong or unshakeable belief in something", then an "allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause", even requiring it to "invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc.," when confronted with ANYTHING that doesn't fit. This 'rinse and repeat' cycle only serves to reinforce the belief, but it still doesn't make it so... It only makes it stronger, and more unshakable.
See... The thing is... ALL of this you can verify yourself to be true, ALL OF IT. But, you just can't do that, as it would mean that you are wrong, therefore you must ignore and deny all of this. "Rinse and repeat".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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In our world we have all kinds of retardants, fire retardants and education retardants, to name two. Though I just learned magnesium hydroxide is a "fire retardant", I've known for a long time the three Abrahamic religions - at least since the renaissance - when practiced to extreme by their (fundamentalist) devotees - are "education retardants".
Wish more people did.
Today's a day I'm contemplating retardants - the many types of retardants - that populate our world. There are many types.
P.S. All this snow on the crags is a climbing retardant. Tsk.
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jstan
climber
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"Paul,
You seem to blame God for all the ill's of the world because He IS God?
Go-B"
I do hold god responsible, definitely. Do you want to know why?
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WBraun
climber
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"I must know what he did"
He created you.
And then you made your own nightmare .....
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jstan
climber
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Werner is on track here, But I am waiting for Go-B.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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jstan
climber
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I know. I know.
Mind you I am assuming a person trying to save my soul thinks I am worth talking to.
That is an assumption.
I, of course, will jump at the chance to be saved by someone who thinks I have s..t for brains.
Such an honor.
By the way that is a great hat.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks rrrADAM
for explaining that Allah simply means God or more specifically, the One God. Let us not forget that the Palestinian Arabs are descended from the same father as the Israeli Jews - the patriarch Abraham who had two wives.
That's why the Muslims accept the Old and New Testaments in addition to the Koran. Some scholars have even said that Islam was the true universalizing offspring of Judaism rather than Christianity, as it kept the monotheistic emphasis of Judaism which the Christians departed from with their concept of the Trinity. Even then, one could claim that Muslims at least worship 1/3 of the same God as the Christians?!
As for the teaching of the Trinity, there were a number of African and Middle Eastern churches which did not accept the version put forth by the Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox. These are churches few have heard of such as the Copts, the Chaldeans, the Armenians, the Nestorians etc.
These Christians, and Jews as well, were treated better under the Muslims for many centuries than Jews or dissenting Christians were treated in Europe. Now thanks to three centuries of western imperialism in the Middle East, they have unfortunatley been lumped together with western Christians as "crusaders" and are now subjected to violence.
Christian history did not begin with Martin Luther or the King James Bible!
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