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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
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i love this song. larry norman, "the outlaw", youtube it. it's brilliant. even if you don't buy the whole christian thing, it's just a beautifully rendered song.
THE OUTLAW
Some say he was an outlaw, that he roamed across the land,
With a band of unschooled ruffians and few old fishermen,
No one knew just where he came from, or exactly what he'd done,
But they said it must be something bad that kept him on the run.
Some say he was a poet, that he'd stand upon the hill
That his voice could calm an angry crowd and make the waves stand still,
That he spoke in many parables that few could understand,
But the people sat for hours just to listen to this man.
Some say a politician who spoke of being free,
He was followed by the masses on the shores of Galilee,
He spoke out against corruption and he bowed to no decree,
And they feared his strength and power so they nailed him to a tree.
Some say he was a sorcerer, a man of mystery,
He could walk upon the water, he could make a blind man see,
That he conjured wine at weddings and did tricks with fish and bread,
That he talked of being born again and raised people from the dead.
Some say he was the Son of God, a man above all men,
That he came to be a servant and to set us free from sin,
And that's who I believe he is cause that's what I believe,
And I think we should get ready cause it's time for us to leave.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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I learned to respect Go-B in the Creationist thread. But unlike DMT I think it is the believers who have given up on discourse in this thread.
I respect religious faith. In people I know who have sincere faith I feel able to place trust which comes less easily for non-religious folk. That's a utilitarian stance but I think it has something to do with why religious belief persists. I am sure that the 99 per cent figure came out of a hat, but people who believe together share a bond that helps them to work together, too, and that is very important. Once a group gets too big, however, defectors in the group can destroy the mutual trust without serious consequences to themselves. Without serious consequences unless the God they profess to believe in is real, that is.
And another problem is that believers who don't share the same belief can cause all kinds of grief to believers and non-believers alike.
I'd rope up with Go-B. It doesn't seem like he'd be distracted with thoughts of what to say, here.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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Everyone, "believer" or not has the potential to do good and to do right by others IMO. If this is the case we have a very significant consequence.
Belief is not the highest resource. People are the highest resource.
As for respect. The questions I have asked GB have to do with respect. By saying what he does and by assuring us of things he cannot possibly know GB shows an underlying lack of respect for others.
I have immense respect for all those I have known, who have deep religious belief, and who have not possessed this lack of respect. They have been many. They are made from the salt of the earth.
There are many who try to put on this great cloak.
But they reveal themselves for what they are.
I would that he would answer.
Edit:
As I suspected.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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jstan:
"As I suspected."
You have been generous and patient with him.
go-B:
"I am grateful God didn't give up on me!"
Go-B, what do you think about what people are asking you?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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MH2:
Over the decades so many people have treated me generously, I have no choice.
When you dig down and imagine what the culture that gave rise to the Old Testament must have been like, one has no trouble accepting there must have been more than a few people who tried very hard to do better and to change it. There almost certainly never was a christ as portrayed by the brochures and PR releases we read today. But there had to have been, not just one. There had to have been many good people. What we see is what the myth makers and politicians constructed.
Whenever I want to see someone stoned to death, I think "No. Wait. We have been there and done that."
Even today, that lesson has not been learned as it must be.
2000 years.
In just my lifetime we have seen the entire Universe come into focus.
Between people? Nothing in 2000 years.
There has to be a reason.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 30, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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jstan:
"Even today, that lesson has not been learned as it must be."
It's good to see a shoulder at the wheel, though.
go-B:
"That's how the bible lays it out, and I know that even real bad guy's can be good to their own, and others seem to do good all the time apart from God?
But apart from God we can do nothing! I wish that if we did more good than bad we would all get to Heaven, Jesus is the sure way sent by God, and that's good enough for me!"
I'd rather guess that go-B is a construct than accept that the above is good enough for him.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:45am PT
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A spiritual paint-by-numbers randomly generated landscape
Product of a golem
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 05:44am PT
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Why? Because God's word is Truth and anything contrary to "the Truth" IS A LIE, ANYTHING Jstan, ANYTHING! If what you say in response to God's word is contrary to IT then your words are just that Jstan, as harsh as that sounds. And not only is it the infallible Truth but I am constantly being taught knowledge that I cannot find anywhere else nor at any other time in my life without it. Let me give you just another example of how God's Word opens doors that just aren't opened in my own power:
"A picture is a "likeness or resemblance of anything." There are many pictures in my home that are very valuable to me. They are photographs of family members or others whom I love dearly. Some of them have been taken during the holidays or other important times of the year. They have been carefully matted and framed to bring just the right attention to the subject. Located in prominent positions in my home as well as my office, you will find several special family photographs. As I see them throughout my day, they bring to my memory those whom I hold so dear.
I also carry photographs in my wallet, as does my husband. He is always prepared to "show off" his family to those who ask about them (and sometimes even to those who do not ask!) Recently, I was meditating on this subject of pictures and I wondered, "If God had a wallet, what pictures would He carry inside of it?"
After studying this thought, I now realize that God loves pictures! I believe this because God gives us so many "pictures" in the Bible. There were no digital cameras, photography studios, or even Polaroids during the time that the Bible was written, so God gave us "pictures" of the things He held dearly in a different format. For example, baptism is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. Romans 6:4-5, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." The Lord's Supper is a picture of His crucifixion. I Corinthians 11:24, "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." I believe these two pictures are precious to God and undoubtedly, He would carry them in His wallet because they represent very significant events to God.
There is another picture I believe would be found in God's wallet...it is the picture of the relationship between Christ and the church. It is called marriage.
Ephesians 5:22-31, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives are to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loved his wife loved himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourished and cherished it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
For ten full verses, God gives us this picture. However, He knows in our finite minds this picture will be difficult for us to fully see or understand. Therefore He calls it a mystery...Ephesians 5:32-33, "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as he; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Dissected and Defined: Ephesians 5:32-33, "This is a great mystery (this is a something beyond human comprehension that only God can reveal) but I speak concerning Christ and the church (but I am talking about the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church). Nevertheless (Though it is a mystery, [as we cannot see the entire picture, for God has not fully revealed this picture to us]) let every one of you in particular (let each of you specifically) so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband (obey these two rules that others may stand in awe of the picture they display!)."
God said, "Hey look, this is something you are not fully going to understand, it is beyond human comprehension. You cannot fully understand it as your relationship with Christ will not be revealed until you reach heaven. But even though you don't understand it, I expect each of you to display this precious picture in a prominent way that others may stand in awe."
In contrast, I recall an episode in my public high school library. Sitting at my table were two students looking through yearbooks, putting mustaches and horns on photos of people to make fun of them, while scratching out the faces of those they did not like. This is not new; people have been defiling photographs (or pictures) for centuries. If someone came into my office, my living room, or into my wallet, and defiled the pictures of those who are precious to me, I would be upset. Yet, it seems that many of us are guilty of this very thing. We have allowed Satan to deceive us into defiling God's precious pictures. Sprinkling for baptism; fermented wine for the Lord's Supper; divorce, separation, alternate lifestyles, bickering, nagging, abuse in marriages.
Many have defiled God's precious pictures. They have defaced them or thrown them aside. However, we, as Christians, need to stand in awe of this picture, treat it with the reverence that God portrays, and stop defiling the precious pictures He carries in His wallet."
You see Jstan, we're not continuing these responses for ourselves but to glorify God, to make Him look good. Second, this is for you and others, of saving even just one lost soul, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." - Luke 15:7:
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all the heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:38-40
And, in doing so, "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5:11,
What a God!
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 10:14am PT
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"fermented wine for the Lord's Supper" (like that's a bad thing!)
OK, now I KNOW you're out to lunch - when you start re-interpreting the bible to fit your own views (anti-alcohol) of things (but I guess every religion does that, huh?)
Wine (by definition) is fermented - otherwise it's just grape juice. That's the only way these ancient folks could keep fruit juices for the long term.
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine at a wedding party, or some such thing? Now THAT'S a miracle I can sink my teeth (palate) into!
Growing up, I always envied the catholics who got the real thing at communion, when all we got were those little cups of welches. Anyway, Jesus and the disciples couldn't have had concord (North American variety) grape juice, would have had to have been some cultivar of vinifera (Eurasian grape) - so I guess you shouldn't really be using Welches for communion.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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not to worry, walla, it took years before run-of-the-mill catholics got to take a dainty sip of the divine alcohol. before that, it was just tasteless crackers, pure bleached wheat starch. it left you with the impression that there really wasn't much flavor to god. i think that proves out in many ways. meanwhile, many a celibate priest has come to enjoy the comforts of drinking up the leftover altar wine.
i came away from christianity with the impression that it's a great cultural sickness, incapable of engaging, embracing and directing human nature with any sort of wisdom, never capable of practicing, on the macro scale, the love that it preaches and instead devolving into excesses of evil which other cultures seldom exhibit. it's given us centuries of rancor and political and spiritual fascism and become, to the modern world, an ill-fitting jacket we are currently in the process of outgrowing.
here we have gobee and illusion dweller crusading for it. both admittedly had to reform some pretty rugged living habits and found support and solace for that in their respective church programs. nothing against these guys, but they have to get out of people's faces with it and argue, if they can, on a rational level instead of blabbering out scriptural quotations à la tourette. ya's guys gotta understand, those things are only meaningful to your fellow believers. me, i just skip over your blah-blah to the places where you're using words of your own.
while we're at it here, i have to ask gobee point-blank: aren't you married to a divorcee? and to illusion dweller, who spends a lot of time praying for me, bless his heart: what's the use of prayer? isn't god all-knowing and all-loving? it would seem that any special requests would be presumptive of that. rather than pray, just sit there. god knows the situation better than you ever will and, you can rest assured, is always doing the right thing.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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What does go-bee's wife have anything to do with this????
You're nuts Tony ....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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back in the old days, gobee, women were expected to suffer more. the option was basically go into the convent if you got a real bad husband. the vows were taken literally. the vows are still the same, but the rules are bent. why is that? could it be that the rules and vows were unreasonable to begin with?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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ID:
All I need do is tell you that what I now say is the word of god. You rely entirely on others to tell you what the word of god is.
Now you have described in detail on the internet how essential (whatever those words are) to your continued existence. I accepted that, without comment.
In return you need to accept my statement that the quality of my life is degraded when deeply flawed people keep telling me they know MY truth.
May I suggest you stop imagining, now that christ is dead, that you are a suitable person to stand in his place and spread his word?
I don't tell you that your interest in pornography hurts your loved ones and that you are therefore a BAD person.
Please accord me the same courtesy. If you will.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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Tony/kpinwalla2, gobee just defended God's Word with an incredibly rich Truth that it stops people in their tracks as it did you, based on your response. You and many others have a gift but your applying it for the wrong purpose. We've been lied to folks, whether you choose to believe it or not. If Jesus puts His reputation on the line by claiming to be "the way, the truth, and the life", and the ONLY book in history to make these claims, then anything contrary to that statement is a lie. That's pretty simple logic. As far as twisting things to fit my purpose...no, no, you've got it backwards. You've read this before but ill keep posting it as long as you all keep making the same mistakes:
The problem I am facing with folks is that willful unbelief will not listen to reason. Why should they, if they can create a pseudo-reality that is tailor-made to satisfy their itching ears? I know that this sounds strange, but that is the world in which we live. The drug culture is a booming industry because it specializes in transporting people into a fantasy world that offers a temporary escape from aching reality of emptiness and the horrifying suspicion that judgment is real (John 16:8, Romans 2:14-16). It's like a person who chooses to stay in the temporary comfort of their stateroom on the Titanic, rather than the available seat on the lifeboat. Furthermore, that person becomes greatly offended when you plead with them to escape to safety. But there is another dimension here with which we must battle: unbelief is
supernatural. No one should be able to logically withstand all the evidence of the empty tomb of our risen Savior, the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, the unmatched miracles of our Lord, His historical impact that punctuated our B.C./A.D. world by His unequaled life, and the transformed lives that bear witness to His saving power. There is no longer room for
reasonable doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. But people do. To reject such compelling evidence is not natural. It is the supernaturally imposed Satanic influence that blinds unbelievers to the reality of Christ, prompting them to reject the salvation that God offers freely at heaven's ultimate expense. That is the reality beneath the surface. 2 Corinthians 4:4 applies.
And so we preach, persuading as many as who will yet enter into our Savior's lifeboat...
and yet there is room. This is our supreme calling. This is our Savior's command.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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You see jstan, He's a "risen Savior," he's not dead. He defeated death and because of that you and I, as sinners, now have a "way" ("I am the way...") to overcome our sinful state. I'm sharing the Truth. Your truth is not true for Jesus is Truth and anything contrary to that is a lie. There can't be two truths for one would be contrary to the other. I'm being transparent by sharing my testimony to help others realize that "hurting people, hurt other people." I now know that my addiction hurt myself and many others. Please tell me this again and again for it can only help. I'm not offended in the least. I share this openly for I hope to help others by doing so.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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I ask only that I be treated civilly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
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i kinda think i've been lied to, ID, with the very program you seem to find so much truth in. me and a lot of people like me feel this way. i'm fairly live-and-let-live, believe-and-let-believe about it, but the world is getting smaller and we seem to interfere with each other more and more. usta be, you could hop on a boat to the new world and have a little colony to live life the way you want to believe it, after you've genocided the pesky pagan natives, of course.
i don't think that reliance on "reason" is going to cut it for you in the long run. faith has to come in when reason fails. i got tired of having a fruitless faith and discovered a new one--faith in life, faith in people, faith in what's good, faith in truth, with a small "t"--it doesn't have to be capitalized because it stands on its own.
nobody has to be "saved", ID, except maybe in out-of-control cases. the human race didn't "fall". the great error of christianity is its failure to recognize human worth without the imposition of an artifical theology. not to say there aren't human problems. but christianity seems to intensify them, rather than alleviate them.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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I'm surprised you haven't addressed this Tony:
" But there is another dimension here with which we must battle: unbelief is
supernatural. No one should be able to logically withstand all the evidence of the empty tomb of our risen Savior, the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, the unmatched miracles of our Lord, His historical impact that punctuated our B.C./A.D. world by His unequaled life, and the transformed lives that bear witness to His saving power. There is no longer room for
reasonable doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. But people do. To reject such compelling evidence is not natural."
"Dimensions, logic, evidence, history, witnesses," it's all there.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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"unbelief" is a figment of your imagination, and that of whoever wrote that tract you're quoting. it's a hunky-dory world when you can get everyone to believe the same thing, but it seems to go to hell in a handbasket anyway. christianity proved that about itself in the long, stinking history of europe throughout its middle ages. everyone embraces jesus, but they kill each other anyway, and no society evolves without the basic evolutionary principles of competition and survival. christianity is unfortunately subject to this basic darwinism and it plays out within its own many-splendored sectarianism. bottom line, ID, is truth with that small "t". the world won't move forward until it begins to build some consensus, and i think we're as far away from that as we've ever been, although i think we're beginning to define the problem. as someone remarked back upthread a bit, religion 100 years hence will probably look a lot like buddhism.
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