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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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Well I don't know about that. No one has ever gone on the teacups ride with my brother and chose to repeat that ride. Way scarier than space mountain. I've seen people's heads almost tore clean off.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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you seem to be trying to define or pigeon hole people's experience into what you think it should be. don't you think people have different reasons for climbing?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
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Micronut, did you have to exert yourself and stretch to reach Layton Kor's bolts on the famous roof pitch on the Column? Or has Erik commoditized that pitch into a boring clip-up, now known as the Nanook Roof?
If that pitch was not Nanooked when you were up there, do you agree with Erik that it would be OK for him to retrobolt it, to add more bolts with a closer spacing, to make the pitch easier? Do you wish that Erik had more fully Nanooked the entire Washington Column, so that you could have successfully made it to the top?
I just want to hear, directly from you, and any other climbers who agree with Erik Sloan that it's acceptable and good practice to retrobolt existing routes on a whim, for any reason, including making those routes easier to climb. The overwhelming majority of posters here, and climbers I know don't agree with Erik. I have been climbing since 1975, and have never met another climber who thought it was OK to wantonly and randomly retrobolt existing routes.
Erik claims to have many supporters who are grateful for his retrobolting. Speak up, please.
Or, are you embarrassed to publicly advocate retrobolting, even though it allows you to climb routes that would otherwise be beyond your capabilities?
Yo Tom,
My buddy led and I jugged the Kor roof. I was just a wanker sliding my toys up the rope on that pitch that day, and still struggled. I never said I fully agree with Erik on all his motives and actions. Was just thanking him for some of the work he's done out there for the climbing community. Now you kids can go on juggling apples, oranges and horse shite. See you around. Stay stoked.
Scott
and by the way....Do you wish that Erik had more fully Nanooked the entire Washington Column, so that you could have successfully made it to the top?
That wouldn't have helped. I dropped my aiders and jugs from the top of the alcove belay and we bailed like a couple Nancies due to my idiocy.
But a nice piece of stone that Column. We'll be back.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:56pm PT
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On the Kor roof Washington Column nobody could reach Kor's bolts except stretch.
So when a couple were added nobody objected except ....????
Who???
Bring a cheater stick was the only alternative except for the fact that people back then left extender slings
so all us normal height mortals could reach those ungodly spaced 3 bolts ......
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
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On some level, I agree with Sloan (and some I don't), so as far as Tom's post goes, I have no problem with option "B" except that it should be hole-for-hole, no additional hole count. Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid. The FA had a good reason to use quarter inchers or rivets. For subsequent replacement, there is no good reason IMO to not use a good bolt. The plain truth is that drilling any bolt to make upward progress is just contrived and flawed from the start, but sometimes a necessary evil to make the route go. Maybe it had to be done on the FA, but you are not preserving the FA experience by leaving crap gear. You will not be drilling like the FA did, so it is a moot point.
Now, as far as adding bolts where there were none (including rivets, bolt-like metal used to make progress, and maybe pins), that is just lame. If early ascents could safely make it up something without the additionalbolt, you can too. Bolting around an entire pitch. Lame.
As far as the patching of old bolt holes; I guess, ideally, I'd like to see that done, but realistically, I imagine it's pretty difficult to do on a bigwall. Most of the time I don't even see the old broken off bolts, even when I'm looking for them.
So yes, here's my take...RE-bolting with better hardware, ok. RETRO-bolting, not ok.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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On some level, I agree with Sloan (and some I don't), so as far as Tom's post goes, I have no problem with option "B" except that it should be hole-for-hole, no additional hole count. Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid.
I agree.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
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Greg and mikeyschaefer, I must have been confused. I thought we got stainless split-shafts from ASCA, about 1.5" or 2", long for rivet repair. The 5-piece belay bolts were stainless, so I guess I mis-remembered the split-shafts the same way. I know what those spikes look like, with the four dimples. Those weren't the ones we used up there. We used rather longish 1/4" split shafts, but we didn't have washers back then
Rawl, or Power Bolt should make a 410/440 stainless split-shaft. The material properties are about the same as a grade 5 bolt. I know that 304 is too soft, but that's not the only SS alloy out there.
I was able to pull in-pitch rivet bolts, redrill the holes deeper, and put the new ones in. The old bolts usually required a good effort with a pair of tuning forks to get them out. The new ones always seemed to be pretty tight, and hard to drive in. The holes never seemed to be worn or flared out. The only bolts that broke were the belay bolts, and only rarely.
I don't recall being able to drill a 3/8" by 2.25" hole, from scratch, in anything like twenty minutes. It took me much longer. Even then, I was old, though. I was probably also not hitting the drill as hard as possible. I remember hitting faster, not harder, while turning the drill. Also, by about the tenth hole, I would have had a sore elbow for the rest of the climb. I don't remember if I'd learned to sharpen the carbide drill bits then. I remember sharpening some bits and sending them to other people.
The proposed drilling on Tis-Sa-Ack, if done to reduce the reach on the rivet ladder, would have required drilling new 3/8" holes from scratch, with only a few of the original holes being reused, if at all. Mike, above, said that Erik prefers to just knock old bolts back and forth until they break off. So, maybe the entire bolt ladder would have been drilled from scratch, with no holes reused.
Anyway, thanks for the comments.
mikeyschaefer, everyone, thanks for answering the question about how that rivet ladder should have been redrilled. Maybe the thing to do is use 3/8" buttonheads, so a repair job could still be a rivet ladder, and not just a line of big belay bolts with hangers.
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ecflau
Gym climber
CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid. I'm having a hard time understanding this quoted part. (New safer hardware to protect older, unsafe (?) hardware.
Regarding new bolts
I'm relatively new to climbing and all these ethics as well, so for the most part, I don't have much to contribute. But through 500 posts now of this thread, I still do not see the issues here. (I personally do not know how to bolt, so I don't plan on being the next Erik Sloan.) While I try to conform to known climbing ethics, I also would be interested in understanding the justification for this?
I read mtnyoung's justification for a "standard" so there isn't a ocean of bolts everywhere, and to me that makes sense - that you don't want that slippery slope, so the "standard" is what the FA party deems. And I understand if unregulated, people may litter the rock with un-necessary gear. That part, I agree.
But as far as the "experience taken away" for instance... top stepping on South Face of Washington Column p5, even if there is a new bolt that helps you aid through, you can still get that experience - just skip the new bolt and do it the way that is done before. I do not understand how that experience is robbed from you, when you can still do it? Or new bolts to protect runouts that the FA party did, if you want to experience it, you can still run it out and not clip the new bolts?
(Again not trying to justify what ES has done, or to say what I think is right or not right. Like fivethirty, I just have a hard time understanding what is done that is so wrong. My only opinion is that I see bolts as a way of making climbing safe in between non-gear places; as for bolt ladders, I just see them as a means to get through sections that are in between fun climbing,)
Thanks in advance...
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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ecflau
Now listen here n00b.
You half no say jose.
You only are allowed to obey.
These online forum masters make all the roools ......
:-)
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
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What I see is this:
If an existing aid line needs new anchors then sure upgrade them. Does anyone object?? Really Original lines on El Cap w/o upgrading the anchors would render them unclimbable.
Replacing existing rivets with new rivets I believe we could all agree on that? But replacing a rivet line with ⅜ bolts is slightly retarded.
Adding bolts to an existing line because you didn't like the flow, line, direction or the crack is also slightly retarded. The bolts on the Zodiac's 14th pitch? Have been removed. Bring a few #4 cam's and climb it naturally. How those were placed (and who) was highly retarded.
Tom going up on Cosmos and replacing and anchors and whatever else on the climb as the FA did no one argues. It was out of respect for the FA to maintain the line in the condition they left it. Replacing rivet ladders and anchors r/t rock fall, missing features and outdated hardware we all understand... I assume
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ecflau
Gym climber
CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 06:57pm PT
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I shall obey
Just looking to see why I'm obeying, thats all.
:)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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LOL ^^^^^
But replacing a rivet line with 3/8 bolts is slightly retarded.
Why?
Anyways ... 3/8 is stronger than rivet.
A hole is a hole.
Rivet is a stoopid piece to begin with and only used on big walls to speed up bolt ladders on first ascent walls.
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John M
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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just skip the new bolt and do it the way that is done before
One reason.. Its much different if you have an out. If you know that this is the only way and there is no other way past that point, then its do or retreat, or even take a big fall which could injure you or kill you. With an out, some of the intensity is gone. People go up there in part for the intensity.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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A hole is a hole.
No, they differ.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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Real men just leap frog their gear all the way to the next belay.
All bolt holes are round .....
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
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Adding artificial risk by using inferior hardware is just plain stupid.
Some rivet ladders were put up with gear that may not hold a fall. That is adding artificial risk. It's not a challenge nature presented, it's something someone manufactured.
Some people feel if you put in a hole fill it with the strongest most reliable option.
Personally I think most bolt ladders especially on trade routes (i.e. routes done by lots of people like the Nose) can be upgraded to bolts and hangers and that helps people move quicker and need less gear. But as Ammon mentioned earlier sometimes you have a rivet at the top of a ladder and then move into difficult aid placements, and you don't want to fall on that rivet which may not hold your fall. So that is part of the challenge of that climb. So if the FA wants to leaves rivets in those places I think we should respect that wish.
But as far as the "experience taken away" for instance... top stepping on South Face of Washington Column p5, even if there is a new bolt that helps you aid through, you can still get that experience - just skip the new bolt and do it the way that is done before. I do not understand how that experience is robbed from you, when you can still do it? Or new bolts to protect runouts that the FA party did, if you want to experience it, you can still run it out and not clip the new bolts?
Because there is no way for future parties on that climb to know which bolts are original or not. Hell even on climbs I've done before I probably wouldn't remember which bolts have been added. Plus it violates the leave no trace / do minimal modification to the rock ethic. And it changes the rating of the climb, a climb that was a 5.11 R mental testpiece could become a 5.11 sport climb. Very different mental challenge.
Hundreds of people on the third pitch of the Nose have now clipped that new bolt, not knowing it was added, and it was a completely forgettable move. Vs. they could have had a hard crux move to make and thought later, wow that was really the highlight of those 3 pitches.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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So the Sloan bolt on the 3rd pitch was used for the speed ascents.
We must dock seconds off if they used it?
Those speed ascent cheaters used unauthorized off limits pre-placed gear.
Their ascents are now deemed null and void.
Yer all cheaters too, you used it .... you have no say.
The thread is now closed!!!
I'm gonna watch television now.
It's the American way.
I done with you American cheaters ..... :-)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 21, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:12am PT
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About the third pitch on the nose. Wasn't that a section that was often fixed with fixed copperheads but sometimes not?
So some people had to free climb or use quite hard aid to climb it, some people could use fixed gear and I guess that some people placed copperheads.
I didn't lead that pitch so I am not completely sure how it looks but according to my understanding of the pitch I would say that a well placed bolt could be a good thing.
To have a single section on an otherwise clean route fixed with old mank is not that good. To require people to free climb at a higher level than they had to in the past and on the rest of the route is neither very good and probably not likely to be the standard when you can use non clean aid to pass the section.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:07am PT
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You know, that approach pitch to the start of the Nose is also a little dicey, someone could get hurt.
Arggh!
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