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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 24, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
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Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemmings after his wife death is more properly seen as doomed by the social conventions of the time. The personal letters indicate a deep relationship that lasted many years.
Foxes are vermin in a farming setting. Horses love to jump. No moral judgement need be applied to that topic.
The founding fathers were all versed in both the Greek and Roman classics, often in the original language. Contemporary writings only speak of the native American political organization and monotheistic religious beliefs in passing and comparison. The idea that American Democracy was based in any way on native American systems is false and a blatantly fraudulent attempt to deconstruct the Greco Roman / Judeo Christian basis for American Democracy. Correlation is not causation!
Read the Mayflower Compact, early sermons and DeToqueville's Democracy in America. The Federalist Papers too if you want to understand our origins.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jan 24, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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"The old testament even encourages the practice (slavery) for the Israelites. If we condemn Jefferson for slave ownership do we condemn Jehovah for encouraging same?"
Mr. Roehl, I believe Thomas Jefferson condemned himself, through his own writings, on slavery. Yours or my condemnation, in our own time, may not have significance, judging in historical context---but Jefferson knew involuntary servitude was wrong, yet continued the practice.
Israelite's slaves? Are we using spurious translation from the Hebrew text to mistake servants for slaves?
"The idea that American Democracy was based in any way on native American systems is false and a blatantly fraudulent attempt to deconstruct the Greco Roman / Judeo Christian basis for American Democracy. Correlation is not causation! "
"Read the Mayflower Compact, early sermons and DeToqueville's Democracy in America. The Federalist Papers too if you want to understand our origins."
I have read them Mr TGT. Perhaps you should read the writings of Thomas Paine and Iroquois Federation then reread the Declaration.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 24, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Hi Karl,
Like Bluey, I always enjoy yours and WBraun's posts. Neither of yo go for the jugular and you both postulate ideas nicely.
Really never necessary to go for the throat when discussing ideas, is it ? Especially these thoughts and philosophies which should stem from love for one another....mixed with joy and peace.
Shoooo guys, I have learned just how hard life can be for a person over the past year. Wouldn't it be Grate if we were there for each other...to care and support and even help in real down to earth ways, even if we disagree.
Think that's the real meaning of "Quote"...religion and god. Love God and love each other as you love yourself.
Yo, Life is way to short to bicker. If anyone out there has someone they love...love them and treat them kindly. If you have someone out there yo don't like....love them and treat them kindly. Our lives are so short lived, like a vapor and then gone says the bible.
With a fire burning brightly in the fireplace and tired from a hard days work, Peace....Lynne
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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I always love Jennie's posts.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 24, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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80% of all victims of trafic accidents have eaten carrots in the previous week.
Carrots do not cause traffic accidents.
Theuclidites, Periclies and numerous other Roman and Greek politicians are the progenators of western Democracy. Not to merntion the British parlamentary tradition fron 1070 onward.
(due deference given to the Mormon mythology about native Americans.)
Tom Payne was a rabbel rouser who after the success of the revolution tried without success to start a rebelion back in the isles. He was a fine writer and propagandist properly seen in the radical Democratic Athenian tradition but has no connection with the Iriquois.
Documents of the time about the Iriquoi read more " hey that's cool they are like us" than "That's a great idea" Again refer to the Mayflower Compact that was written before any significant contact with the locals.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jan 24, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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Again, sir, my object in point was not to describe who were the true "progenitors of democracy", but the origins of the language Jefferson used in the Declaration of Independance.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 24, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Go back and study Athens and the radical democracy.
Wiki is often "conventional" wisdom for what it's worth.
Locke didn't come up with it ex nhilo.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 24, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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Karl,
I hadn't intended to say any more on this thread, but I need to contest one misconception. Saul of Tarsus met Jesus on the the road to Damascus. He always claimed apostolic authority, and could not have done so without the body of believers accepting his claim to have seen the risen Christ.
Even so, I don't think he would disagree with your characterization of him as immoral. He always called himself the worst of sinners, and derived his moral authority not from his own life, but from Christ's.
JOhn
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 24, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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John writes
"I hadn't intended to say any more on this thread, but I need to contest one misconception. Saul of Tarsus met Jesus on the the road to Damascus. He always claimed apostolic authority, and could not have done so without the body of believers accepting his claim to have seen the risen Christ. "
You are welcome to have your say, but hearing the voice of a Spirit Christ may, or may not, be the same as having spent a few years with him personally like the other disciples did. We have to take his word for it, just we have to take the word for thousands who have heard (or thought they heard) Spirit Christ's voice since then (including those who claim "God told me to skin you alive") You have to wonder the mystery of Jesus, with all his knowledge and power, making the chief apostle a guy who never spent a physical day with him, while training 12 other guys to spread his message.
To take an extreme example, if Osama Bin Laden, (whose views on serious Christians are far more generous than Paul's were at the time he was headed to Damascus) were to claim to have gone blind by Jesus grace and turned into a vocal proponent of Christianity, emphasizing a different aspect of Christ than the words Christ was said to have spoken, how would you gauge the veracity of such a claim?)
After all, Paul's mission was to extinguish Christianity, while Bin Laden would consider Christians to be in a sister religion that also expected Christ to return at the end of the world to take charge on judgement day
The fact that it's documented in the Bible that Paul and the in-person Jerusalem disciples did not agree on some important doctrines (at least until they met and hashed it out perhaps) is testament to the room for doubt whether Paul's version of Christianity should be sacrosanct.
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 24, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
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Karl, what does that mean, "room for doubt whether Paul's version of christianity should be sacrosanct?"
Paul was clearly an ambassador for jesus.
Paul and Peter had some issues but I never thought they were large or unresolveable.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 25, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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Lynnie wrote
"Karl, what does that mean, "room for doubt whether Paul's version of christianity should be sacrosanct?"
Paul was clearly an ambassador for jesus.
Paul and Peter had some issues but I never thought they were large or unresolveable."
All that is a matter of opinion. Remember, there was serious arguments about whether non-Jews should even be allowed to be Christians and whether they would be required to follow scriptural laws (Circumcision was a big one!)
Do ambassadors always know and understand those whom they promote?
Didn't Jesus, in the Gospel, officially pass the torch and authority to Peter. How come Peter and Paul disagree?
I have beefs with Paul. He turned Christianity toward a formula of accepting the murder of Jesus as so overwhelmingly important, that he almost never mentions any other teaching or story of Jesus. Check it out. Paul ignores the teachings that Jesus preached in favor of the formula of accepting Jesus death as the central AND secondary teaching.
I think that's a shame. If you ask me, Jesus dying was hardly a sacrifice. It was coming here in the first place that was the sacrifice.
But, I'm just providing food for thought. It's worthwhile to study the Bible scholastically as well as theologically to see how it fits into other literature of the ancient world, their cultures, Judaism (Christ was an observant Jew after all) and also understand textual criticism regarding the writing and editing of the Bible.
That's if you care to get technical about doctrine and need to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. If you'd rather just Love unconditionally and seek Spirit and Christ, I wouldn't worry about your fate.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jan 25, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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Was Jesus incarnate?
or a construct?
Would either one be better than the other?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 25, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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Screw you Weschrist, you sacrilegious pile of steaming dog crap!
Ok. Just kidding. I know you don't like things boring.
I like you too.
Which doesn't mean so much since I've pretty much decided to like everybody.
But still, appreciate the reflection
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 25, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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There are some fascinating, and only partly answered questions, about how Saul of Tarsus managed to take control of and reorient an obscure Jewish sect, and turn it into what became Christianity. The takeover artists on Wall Street couldn't hold a candle to him, nor could the marketing experts.
Some religious experts refer to Christianity as Paulism, to emphasize what he did. His reworking of the early dogma and myths, his break from Judaism, and his reorientation of the preachings so that they were more palatable to a largely gentile audience, were brilliant.
And all this at a time when the believers were starting to figure out that their messiah wouldn't be returning any time soon after all, and when the Jews were having their own rough times with a fellow named Titus.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2009 - 01:49am PT
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How can the messiah return when he never ever left?
If he left we would instantly die.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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Dr_Fail
Your post proves you are dead, and a walking corpse.
There's no life in you. Just a mechanical robot.
You're toast ........
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asioux
Trad climber
Rancho Cucamonga
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Jan 27, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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The Bible belive it or not is our owners manual on how we should live. The bible is Gods word for us and God sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins! Jesus Christ spoke of his father and performed miricles to show that he is the son of God. Jesus Christ knew his fate, he for told his fate to his prophets. It is written in the bible in the book of John when Christ was crucified. The bible was written thousands of years ago and every word is true! In order to have eternal life you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior and belive in him. Have faith in God and live by his commandments. would you rather spend eternity in Hell or eternity in Heaven? I fear God and I hope you too, because I wouldn't want that punishement for anybody spending eternity in hell. I'm not perfect. But everyday Satan trys to tempt me with sin. Lets face it this word is wicked and there is a lot of deceit. The heart is the most deceitful. The time is now! To really open your eyes and your mind and really search the truth about God. Jesus is coming soon, the prophecys are coming true. The Rapture is very near and I won't want you to have to suffer that horrible 7 years of tribulation if your left behind when Christ returns. This is serious stuff man. The earth we now live on is our temporary home everything we have is not really ours. It is loan to us by GOD! The rock that we climb is a beautiful creation that God gave to us. Have you ever truely sincerly thanked God for it. Or even thanked who ever you belive in, perhaps you don't belive in anything. Let me tell you this you think the walls in Yosemite, Zion are great thats just a little teaser of what God has in store for us.
I ask you as a fellow brother a climber and a friend, I don't know all of you here, I may have crossed your path at places that I have climbed. I know I sat at a table in the valley cafe with Wbraun having breakfest and coffee with my friend(my offwidth partner there) that I climb with in the Valley.
Do me a favor. Do some research on God. Perhaps you are very knowledgeable with God and Jesus Christ and belive and have Christ in your heart and truely mean it. God Bless you. If you don't already. I ask you to give God a chance. Get a bible. Check out this website. The Rapture, Mark of the beast. It talks about when Jesus Christ returns and what happens with the Anti Christ and 666. Thats enough to put the fear of God in me and accept Christ as my savior and have faith in the unseen. Trust your faith have faith in God and watch his works. Pray, read the Bible have faith and act upon your faith. Also check this out, read up on HarvestCrusades and Pastor Greg Laurie. I hope that I lead someone here on this site to God and join me in Heaven one day.
As your those of you that I have offended I apologize, but when everything comes to past. You will be blown away that it actually happened and I hope you think to yourself, I should have listened... I share this with you all from my heart...
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BBA
Social climber
West Linn OR
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Jan 27, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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I read "The Origin of Species" in three weeks. I read the Bible aloud in Spanish 10 times, literally - I was using it as a means to learn the language - and it took three years. I can tell you which one is coherent and has meaning, but I won't because it wouldn't matter one iota. Just try reading them in your language of choice.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 28, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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Hey SkipT, Dr. F has been attacked personally. It doesn't just exist in his mind read the thread. Why do you have to call people boneheads or say they're dead or toast or whatever? Why not lighten up and have a civil discussion? He makes good points and you avoid them. I don't get it. Where's god's love? Peace?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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Dr F has been attacked!
hahahaha It's the end of the world .....
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