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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Luca said "the idea of a curved pick came first from outside continental Europe - I believe that was YC idea first."
He indeed popularized it but the first was in use in Germany three decades earlier. At best, YC reinvented an old idea.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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Can you produce a photo of any of these old ideas, ANF?
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Wee Jock
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 08:06pm PT
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Luca: Perhaps what might be abstracted from what Bonatti said is that if a route is first climbed cutting steps then the only 'true' way of repeating the route is also to cut steps ... front pointing up the Bonatti-Gobbi (or the Shroud, or the Triolet etc etc) is not really repeating the route that Bonatti and Gobbi did - you get no idea of the true difficulty of the first ascent. Personally I regret never doing routes like Point Five and (even more) Orion Direct in Scotland cutting steps - I cannot really appreciate the skill, tenacity, courage to have done those routes in that style! Front Pointing has reduced those routes to 'an afternoon cup of tea with granny'! So what if other, later, routes require front pointing - those routes (obviously) do not!
Another point: Tobin and I NEVER WENT OUT TO DO A NEW ROUTE ON THE WALKER ... That was an accident of not having more of a route description than "the direct route up the NE face of the Point Walker". We followed that (paltry) description, where Desmaison followed the most dramatic line of the face but one that had little relationship to that description! Motivations are being ascribed to us (by you and Rick) that we never had!! The only important thing about the line that Tobin and I did is that you CAN follow your nose up that face towards the summit and you WILL FIND a slender but definite and complete line across the ramps!! Irrespective of any difficulties there may or may not be on the route it is, therefore, a really good mountaineering route! And you don't need a ton of gear to do it - no compressors, bolts, cams, abalakovs, hooks, ice-spurs, specialty ice-axes and ice-hammers beyond the sort of stuff Chouinard and MacInnes gave us at the start of the 70's and ordinary crampons! Having a friend like Tobin is useful, though!
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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True alpinism has never been about gear. Alpinism has always been the man behind the idea, his imagination, determination and willingness to suffer.
The best could always do with a any old club with a nail through it and something to help your boots claw up the snow and ice. We've all known them. They are a bright spot in any climbing career,
Bring along a rope gun like Cassin, Bonatti, Lowe, Robbins, Buhl, Sorenson, Blanchard, Twight or any of the dozens of others and you have a fair chance of getting up something, then or now.
If they stay alive and in the sport, the best look for like souls with the strength and brashness of youth and willingly follow them along or help them along to an even brighter and wider imagination.
"Charlet" (and Bettembourg) are well known families in Argentier with plenty of ties. But Armand (who died in 1970) had not influence om the development of the curved pick. What I'm being told is that "Charlet Moser" got directly influence by Chouinard, who convinced them try the 55 cm shaft, curved pick axe.
Just for the record - Grivel (who invented 10 points crampons in 1090 toghether with Oscar Eckstein, and, on their own 12 point crampons in 1929) did develop a line of modular (interchangeable) picks few years later as a completely independent design. This said, the idea of a curved pick came first from outside continental Europe - I believe that was YC idea first.
I have no doubt YC was the first to have commercial success with a curved pick. I too have seen an early northwall hammer with a curved pick and iirc a short axe as well. Still looking for that reference. YC admits himself that he used a number of axes to incorporate what worked into his own design. I also find it interesting that it was Charlet that made the first piolet for YC but Camp ended up producing the Chouinard axes. Must be a story behind that?! I've also cited one reference, Micheal Chessler @ Chessler books, "Chouinard copied the steep drooping pick of European hand made axes, that planted firmly in hard ice or Neve, and made balance and esthetics primary."
I have yet to verify that info but it is not the first I have heard it. My take is the "real" inventors of what we now know as ice/mixed climbing are the Scotts, Jeff Lowe and hooking tools. The guy that made it possible...through his writings, advertising and equipment sales was YC.
Obviously no one took real advantage of the tools if custom axes were available. When you see what was used for tools/crampons/boots on the first really hard alpine ice climbs.....it might well make you shake your head in wonder today.
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Wee Jock
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 03:41am PT
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Bloomin' 'eck Dane, 10 point crampons were invented just a few years after the battle of Hastings when Norman Willie did for old 'arold in the eyeball???? Perhaps we can see the design in the Bayeux Tapestry?? Did they have Chouinard Piolets in those days as well? I reckon the Black Prince (not Edward the Confessor - he came before Harold) was the first person to climb the north face of the Grandes Jorasses - Froissart was probably standing in for Luca as the recording journalist. I'll have to check his journals to see if there is a mention!!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Feb 20, 2009 - 08:50am PT
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Yep, and the curved pick was the secret weapon for penetrating armor!
Here's the relevant passage from Climbing Ice:
"On a rainy summer day in 1966, I went onto a glacier in the Alps with the purpose of testing every different kind of ice axe available at the time. My plan was to see which one worked best for piolet ancre, which one was better for step-cutting, and why. After I found a few answers, it took the intervention of Donald Snell to convince the very reluctant and conservative Charlet factory to make a 55-centimeter axe with a curved pick for the crazy American. In those days a 55-centimeter axe was crazy enough, but a curved pick! I had the feeling that modifying the standard straight pick into a curve compatible with the arc of the axe's swing would allow the pick to stay put better in the ice. I had noticed that a standard pick would often pop out when I put my weight on it. My idea worked..."
page 27-28
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Feb 20, 2009 - 11:39am PT
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Ok, ok, I didn't make my point very well :) BITD some pretty hard stuff had been done by chopping steps and water ice was generally avoided where possible. But we avoid water ice now on long alpine routes and look for the squeeky snice. We look for perfect conditions...like on the McIntyre/Colton recently?
Alpine climbing has always been about conditions not the tools used. From what I have read of accounts on the your and Tobin's climb, I suspect you felt better armed than Tobin with his curved gear and you with Terros. Flexi crampons all? Correct me if that is a misunderstanding.
Didn't much matter, what you had or didn't have as you obviously brought enough in retrospect. A couple of young heady lads, with more skill than they might have imagined and a distinct lack of gear that one might have expected "a professional" to have available for such and undertaking.
Imagination, determination and a willingness to suffer is what sets the great climbers apart from good climbers. More than a few of those posting on this thread, even if they don't care to admit it in public. History makes those judgements not the players.
YC had the imagination to "reinvent" the ice tool. Doesn't matter if there were similar tools around before him. If they were available, as some of us think, they never fulfilled their potential. It took guys like DR, YC and their buddies at home and abroad to take full advantage of the tools and more importantly to write about the tools and techniques in the popular press.
Jello and Mike Weiss skipped the alpine hammer phase and took the 70cm piolets up Bridalveil for chrimney sake! And that isn't even giving Greg Lowe credit for his avantgarde climbs.
How about the eclectic set up of gear that made the 1st ascent of Ames Ice Hose? On different pitches after a game of rock/paper/scissors it was a leashless 70cm piolet/rooster head, a set of humingbirds and a set of Terros.
In Canada it was just as bad. Bugs came up with the idea of aiders on Terros. But that was quickly dismissed and not "quite" right even there. Things changed really fast in the '70s with ice climbing. All the good ice climbing areas were involved to some degree.
Having been lucky enough to have climbed through the '70s and now once again out happily hooking away, I get to have a unique perspective.
Many here have an even broader perspective, Jack Roberts comes to mind and some of the obvious lurkers on this thread. But anyone who started climbing real ice with a piolet and an alpine hammer will know where I am coming from.
Stuff we use to grade as VI (and I heard a few Canadian's in the early '80s claim there was nothing harder than 4 on thick ice) is now a 5 and maybe even a lowly 4. The down grades are tool specific imo. I saw it coming on the 2nd ascent of Slipstream. Bonatti saw it 20 years earlier.
Bonatti said it wasn't the same climb without chopping steps and he is right. Take any grade 5 ice today and it isn't the same climb with leashless Nomics, super fast placing screws, lwt weight, high tech boots and soft shell stretchy clothing with garden weight gloves. If you know how to use all of them to your advantage it is much, much easier and safer as well.
I think that is a good thing. Proper respect is due IMO for all those that came before us (climbers today) and did at least as much, and some times a good deal more, with less.
"Tobin's season" with all the players involved is a classic example of "more with less".
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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"Can you produce a photo of any of these old ideas, ANF?"
Contact Gary Neptune. He has the photo. IIRC it's a screen grab from a pre-WWII German climbing film that clearly shows a short shaft with a curved pick.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Feb 20, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Thank you No Flatlander. Sharp eye, good memory.
Any Boulder locals who could help us nail this down?
Tarbuster?
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Wee Jock
climber
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Feb 20, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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As far as - no thick ice is harder than 4 - Jimmy Marshall, the famous Scottish winter climber would have agreed with this, with respect to front-pointing. There is an article in Outside mag where a couple of Americans interview him and he talks of 'his granny would be able to do anything, front-pointing'.
DR - I did a fair bit of climbing with a Chouinard axe and little Salewa ice hammer (all metal, curved T section pick) in my first year of winter climbing and reckon that pretty much anything on thick ice can be climbed using them! I did things like Chancer, Smiths Route, Point Five, Zero and Orion direct with them. On mixed ground neither of us used our gear on rock - we used our hands! On very thin (smears and plates of) ice Terrors were definitely an advantage. In soft snow (the cornice) the terror axe was brilliant!. My last season (1979) I used a prototype Chacal and a Simond Mustang curved pick axe. The Chacal had an advantage on thick water ice over the terror, but I climbed mixed ground quite happily with the Mustang!
A good carpenter does not blame his tools!! The adze on the Terror axe WAS a secret weapon, however!!
We both had Salewa Adjustable crampons which seemed just great to me.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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I posted this Jimmy Marshall shot upthread already but ever tire of it. Negotiating Parallel B gully.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Feb 21, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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Thanks for re-posting Steve. You're right, there's something so archetypal about that shot. I too never tire of it, and never tire of several other of the Scottish images that have gotten onto this thread.
There's something fine and innocently refreshing about simply tackling with gusto the medium that happens to be right in front of you. The Scots were --still are -- blessed with their rimed-up medium. They attacked it with glee when the world wasn't watching. They made tools especially good for it. Like Wee Jock just said again, "The adze on the Terror axe WAS a secret weapon, however!!" And it was also just a local guy hammering out in his little shop something peculiarly good for where he was. And other local guys without even shops, bent over Primus stoves recurving their picks.
I found the same in the Palisades. Just a kid who couldn't wait to come to grips with what was right in front of me. Happened to be mostly granite, but when it was snow and ice too, there was Don Jensen with his Terror hammer. And then along came YC. He had been around more, picked things up. But he too was just a guy with a good forge and a healthy enthusiasm for "forging" onto the medium we found there, which happened to be flinty-hard water ice.
That's what I get out of "Tobin's Season" too. Head up the Shroud because they could. See with their own eyes ice cutting through overlaps to the summit ridge and just go climb it.
Fun, fun, fun.
History comes later, putting it all in context, and I gotta say I'm proud of the strides this group right here have collectively made toward putting the pieces together into a jigsaw that makes a surprising lot of sense, a lucid story of where we've been.
Carry on!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Feb 21, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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East Side Underground mentioned up thread that the Charmoz had been skied. The subject of the inevitable downgrading of one generation’s ”Last Great Problem” in a few years to an “ Easy Day for a Lady” was covered long ago in a seminal article whose author I forget, but Steve probably remembers. I am more awed by those climbers who chopped, in Luca's words, nasty, brutish (and short?) steps up the Charmoz in the days before front points than modern glisse descents. The cloud of mystery that obscured the peaks then was as forbidding to climbers back in the days before instant information as the technical difficulties.
The fact that the skill and courage of modern climbers or glisse practicioners is almost unfathomable does not detract in the least from my appreciation of the challenges faced by a Brown, Bonatti, a Robbins, a Chouinard, a Whymper, or on the glisse side, a Vallencant or Saudan.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Willo Welzenbach's spirit floats around the Charmoz too.
An old photo that I came across in a junk shop looking up that way about a hundred years ago.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Feb 21, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Re: Grivel 10-points invented in 1090!
Dane & WeeJock: I did some quick research on Lucasignorelli’s post that included the fact that Grivel invented crampons in 1090:
Lucasignorelli on Feb 19: “Just for the record - Grivel (who invented 10 points crampons in 1090 together with Oscar Eckstein”
It was a typo. Lucasignorelli has been slaving over his history links late at night.
From Grivel’s fine website is the following link: showing that modern 10 points were invented in 1908-09.
http://www.grivel.com/Storia/Storia_Det.asp?Cat=R
Here is some of the Grivel copy on the process.
The whirlwind Oscar Eckenstein (1859 - 1921) broke into this rather quiet environment in the early 20th century.. An engineer, brilliant mountaineer, argumentative and a loner, he published two articles in the Ostereich Alpenzeitung, on the 20th. July 1908 and the 5th. June 1909, detailing the results of his research on the manufacture of crampons, their systematic use and the incredible feats they could perform. In fig.9 illustrates his designs. Eckenstein’s real innovation and its importance doesn’t just lie in the technical perfection of the crampons but rather in the spirit of courage and innovation with which he defined their use..... his major contribution has been that of a moral nature. This ultimately consists in the faith that mountaineers laid in his inventions: nobody dared before him, but afterwards everybody trusted crampons. (Manual d’Alpinisme du C.A.F. 1934)
Our hero bought his plans to the blacksmith at Courmayeur, Henry Grivel – who, even though he was doubtful, made the crampons for the “English gentleman”, who had the undoubtable advantage of being able to pay. Success was immediate, so much so that on the 30th. of June 1912 a competition for “cramponneurs”, between guides and porters, was organized on the Brenva glacier.
It is important to note that Eckenstein also introduced a special marking system to judge the competitors’ style in the various trials. This could make it the first climbing competition in the history of mountaineering, even though it was on ice.
Fritz
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lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
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Feb 21, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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DR
> You're right, there's something so archetypal about that shot. I too never tire of it, and never tire of several other of the Scottish images that have gotten onto this thread
This one below is my own version of that shot (I'll rephrase it - it probably gives me the same archetypal feel you may get from that Marshall pic)
It's Gianni Comino (one of the our "scruffy lads" - I like the definition - even he was the opposite of scruffy), taken by Giancarlo on August 20, 1978. Third pitch, second step of the Ypercouloir. The perspective of this piture is wrong, as I discovered four years ago when I managed to see this pitch with my eyes - the upper column is weirdly tilted, and overhangs. The "wall" on the left is actually a roof.
The pitch took four hours to be climbed, and Gianni could not put any protection - the ice was so rotten and crumbly (ice cream consistence, in Giancarlo's words) that had to climb it basically soloing. The pitch above took another three hours, and Gianni fell for 40 metres, luckily without consequences. The tool used was a normal 70cm axe. without curved pick.
I understand that all this hype on my part for this picture may sound quite silly (if not even a bit boring) formost of the crew posting here - after all, Jeff did the Bridalveil climb in 1974, and I suppose this kind of stuff was rather commonplace in Scotland by 1978 standards. But for us, it was NEW - nothing like that had even been remotely attempted in the Mt. Blanc range, not even by the French (Gianni had soloed the Supercouloir in 1977). I remember seeing this picture on June 1979 in the Courmayeur guides bureau, and feeling a distinctive tingle on my spine, like "uh oh". It hasn't happened much often afterwards, and almost never in the last 10 years!
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lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
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Feb 21, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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Fritz:
thanks, until now I hadn't noticed the typo - and I was just wondering what the HECK the Battle of Hastings had to do with crampons!!
Another demonstration that trying to make thoughtful posting late at night after 10 hours work shifts is never a good idea...
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lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
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Feb 21, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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Gordon:
I've found where you've read the "350 pitons" reference to the Gousseault - it's actually the number of pitons claimed for the Directe de L'Amitie (the source is the usual Buscaini/Vallot). Probably memory just played you a trick.
Then, as promised above, here's the list - all the relevant repeats made by British climbers on the Mt. Blanc area between 1970 to 1978. It doesn't cover the Aiguilles de Chamonix area. And of course it doesn't cover ascents who weren't in some way documented (there are many - possibly the majority)
I’ve added also the second ascent of the NF of Greuvetta (which was done in 1964, so outside the range of the 79’s, for reasons I’ll explain later.
The list is ordered by date of the repeat. Remember, these are only the repeats, no the many original routes opened by Brits during that period (so, no ”Scala di Seta”)
All the climbs listed are “peculiar”, left side stuff which seems to me was chosen because they looked cool, rather than anything else.
The most significant of the bunch it’s of course #11, the almost legendary 3rd ascent of the Gervasutti line on the east face of the Jorasses. It’s the only climb listed in the route where the repeat lasted more than the original ascent (3 vs 2 days, this was valid for the 2nd ascent of the Gervasutti too – Julien and Bastien in 1951 stayed three days on the wall). This is a testament to the difficulty of a that line who, in my opinion, was the most difficult rock climb of the Alps before the American Direct on the Drus was opened (far harder than the Cassin spur on the NF Jorasses).
This repeat had also a big resonance in Italy, because the article written by Joe Tasker for Mountain was translated by Italian magazine “Rivista della Montagna”, and made a lot of local climbers aware that alpinists from the UK and the US were not just climbing hard at home (or opening new routes in the Alps), but were also busy tackling revered but hardly repeated classics like this one. For someone was a big shock, as it began to clear the huge misunderstanding (in some way fuelled by Giampiero Motti famous 1974 article on the Yosemite climbing scene – “Il Nuovo Mattino”) that young English speaking climbers were only into pure technical difficulty, and had little interest for classical mountaineering.
Another interesting repeat is #13 – the S face direct to the Aiguille Noire de Peuterey is an obscure but again fairly difficult item, one of the few “Dolomite like” climbs of the area. Quite fascinating too to see many of these repeats done by the same people: Carrington/Rouse, or the Burgess brothers.
From 1975 onward there’s a definite shift towards more recent routes, so I guess there was really a lot of competition in Chamonix to see if these new routes were as difficult as the local climbers/press would made. Another interesting trivia – NONE of the routes of the list were originally climbed by Brits, as if the Snells field crew wasn’t much interested in the stuff.
The route #1 was put as a comparison. The 800m high NF of Mt. Greuvetta is one of the most obscure (if not THE most obscure) NF of the MB area.
The climb itself is a great one, but the face has a dreadful reputation, with a nasty climb/fatalities ratio - it's very rarely climbed, even today. What moved Brown (not Joe) and Woolcock to climb it may be an interesting subject on itself!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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Shown below is a pair of Austrian made Eckenstein 12 point crampons. They were made in Fulpmes by W Benossenschaf.
That front point curvature sure has a familiar look.
I am curious whether the Eckenstein name disappeared once Grivel independently developed the Ultralight 12 point using a better alloy of steel taken from railroad track stock?
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Wee Jock
climber
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Feb 22, 2009 - 05:17am PT
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Luca - I figured that the date for the Eckenstein crampons was a typo, I just couldn't resist the comment. Two dates known by every Brit schoolkid of my era were 55BC Julius Caesar invaded England (veni, vici, vici) and 1066AD William of Normandy landed at Hastings (this last bit of universal knowledge possibly due to a book called "1066 and all that"). Also, the allusion to Froissart as the recording journalist in lieu of our very own Signor Signorelli!
Luca, you really must stop this crap about boring anyone!!! Every word you write is lapped up by the rest of us!
I love the photo of the very elegant scruff Giani (it would be very hard, I know, for an Italian to compete with us Brits in the arena of scruffiness!!). The ice was crap ... would it have been possible for him to climb the icicle at all with the gear he had if the ice had been hard water ice? The Scot Cunningham with his English pal March climbed the icicle of the Chancer in 1969 using daggers and crampons - prefiguring the advent of front pointing with curved/angled axes. Cunningham experimented with front pointing up ever steeper angles of ice with crampons and daggers while in the Antarctic as a FIDS (Falkland Islands Dependency Survey AKA 'F*cking Idiots Down South') dog team driver. I did an early ascent of the Chancer in 1974 on good water ice using a Chouinard axe and Salewa hammer which I bet made it a LOT easier!!! I don't think I ever placed a single ice-screw in Scottish ice - didn't trust them one iota so I never bothered wasting the energy putting them in (plus I never owned one). I see that now they are very popular in Scotland ...
(By the by you forgot Terry King and my epic second ascent of Grand West Couloir in 1976 in your list!! Even Kingy fell off, but we got up it in the end!). I don't think that the original Cassin start to the Walker had many ascents before Kingy led it free in 1975??
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