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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 08:17am PT
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on the other hand, what the hell.
"dare i disturb the universe?" -- j. alfred prufrock
"to be alive is to undo your belt and look for trouble." -- alexis zorba
klimmer: a welcome post up there. humanity currently has three divisions--predators, prey that doesn't know it's prey, and prey, like you and i, that does. that truth didn't make me free, but it sure organized a lot of chaos. i raised the subject with john in a gym conversation once, and he didn't want to go there then. he isn't the only smart guy like that. DRG is another story. he writes like an angel and speaks superbly to adoring audiences, but my experience of him in person is that there are places he doesn't like to go either.
HFCS: glad i'm not the only evolutionist in the playpen. that mystifies me too, this compulsion to have our sorry asses saved. where are they coming from with that? i guess their churches keep telling them what scum they are because adam ate an apple. i was tempted to strangle the priest at my mother's funeral who couldn't get off his sin kick and spend 15 seconds admitting what a great woman she was. i think the whole church would have cheered me on.
my cat doesn't need to be saved, and she's way further down on the evolutionary scale from me, but try to tell her that. she's an angel too, except when something smaller comes around to get its wings torn off. i think christianity is incapable of answering blake's query of the tiger: did he who made the lamb make thee?
largo: in my ongoing paranoia, i'm beginning to suspect that academia intentionally forces graduate students into narrow specialties so they don't start nibbling in the department next door or across campus and learn too much. i never made it to orals, and my name became mud for convincing one of their star students that it would be better to have babies with me than to continue jumping through all those hoops.
evolutionary science seems to be headed in the direction that, while the human race is quite special, there is really nothing essential about us that can't be found, at least in buds, among our fellow living entities. certain things evolve again and again in the history of life. predation showed up early and has created great diversity. one hates to look at it, but predators and prey need each other. in a way, that means we needed dick cheney and he needed us.
intelligence re-evolves again and again. octopuses are damn bright mollusks. chimpanzees, the DNA scholars tell us, are closer to humans than to gorillas, and gorillas can be taught vocabularies of up to about 500 words, close to the number of kanji characters the average japanese must learn in order to read a newspaper. other primates can't write symphonies, but lyrebirds and mockingbirds are respectable rhapsodists and jazz-like improvisers. and chimps, they tell us, make real war on each other in the wild.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 17, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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TB- "i guess their churches keep telling them what scum they are because adam ate an apple"
Never been called or considered "scum" in church, nor anyone else(including you).
Simply "loved"...
"God so loved the world..."
And it was some kind of "fruit" that Adam ate, doubt if it was an apple, most likely it was a fig...
Regardless, it was because he disobeyed/didn't trust God, and desired to "become like God". The same "sin" that Lucifer/Satan committed.
"I will be like the most High!" Isiah 14:14
"...and you will be like God." Genesis 3:5
Tony Bird- "did he who made the lamb make the".
Of course!
And the tiger and the lamb lived in peace in the Garden until the fall.
But of course Blakes Lamb is Jesus, and the "Tyger" could be perceived as evil or Lucifer perhaps...He also gave the angels "choice".
EDIT: "My cat doesn't need to be saved."
Your cat is not conscious(have the knowledge)of good and evil!
BTW, I enjoy reading your posts Tony...they're food for thought!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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thanks for the compliment, TripL7--it means all the more since we disagree.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 17, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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ok. lemme esplain...
can we all agree it's a miracle that we are here ? can we just get that one down ?
ok...now...give it a name...
BANG ! FAIL... you've just lost it. now you've got My God is better than your God and it's all f*#ked up from here. As soon as you get any more than 'Hey, check it out. Here we are - we should appreciate this and treat each other accordingly...' YOU'VE LOST IT. COMPLETELY. Why do we fail here...why why why....
we fail at Step 1. We all know it's *something*, then we define it to the point where I have to kill you and you have to kill me and we're both going to hell forever because of what someone else believes anyway...
Why can't we just Get It ?
It's so damn sad it makes me cry.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 17, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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Paganmonkey- Keep the faith. Times are changing. Evolution of belief is underway. Despite its fits and starts, despite its inefficiencies.
The advice that works for me: Don't always focus on change year to year, let alone day to day.
Who said it first, was it Benjamin or Samuel J. or Samuel C. or... "A watched pot never boils."
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 17, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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;-)
kill infidel, repeat step 1...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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May 18, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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People discussing the reality of the spirit-that-moves-in-all-things is like fish discussing the reality of water.
Most fish probably don't understand the basic chemistry of water, much less the physics, biochemistry and physiology of water-based systems. That doesn't seem to slow down their ability to live in the reality of water.
And then there is the question of fish discussing whether or not fishermen are real. Lots of fish have experienced contact with fisherman of the first, second, third and fourth kind.
Many fish have no direct experience with fishermen and might argue against the idea that fishermen really exist. And perhaps some fish would argue that you just need to accept on faith the existence of fisherman.
There are still enough fish that don't believe in fishermen; so that fishermen can continue to catch and eat fish.
The moment of truth is a term from bull fighting. It refers to the moment when the bull suddenly perceives the difference between the cape and the bull fighter. At that point the bull fighter has only one chance left to survive - by killing the bull on the next charge.
We have much to learn...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 18, 2010 - 02:05am PT
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Well, it was always my understanding that the moment of truth refers to the "moment" a child raised in a traditional Christian family realizes at once (a) that the science model is spot on and (b) that the world isn't a god kingdom or a three-layer cake.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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May 18, 2010 - 04:20am PT
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Why do you believe in God? was Juan's original question....
and like I said 3 1/2 years ago in essence --- "Who are you gonna call?"
By the way, I am just blown away with the beyond wonderful, insightful, academically written posts submitted in this second go round of this ageless question, by those who know the true and living God; those who have flown the bombers, walked in mine fields, held their buddy as he bled out; who have watched the miracle of their child being born, who have asked that high power to heal one's own body and watched that miracle progress, who in burying their loved ones release that spirit to a safe and eternal place; who know that this life is but a blink in cosmic time; who know when they top out or finally reach the top of whatever they are challenged to climb - that the vista rewarded them was created for them for just this very moment by a power greater than themselves; who know that the lion and the lamb are but one gene apart and all of us are linked by virtue of our common ancestry of Adam and Eve. To believe in God is to possess that peace that passes understanding and we don't have to worry or question because we know that we know that we know that we know. One just has to live long enough in this world and with his fellow man to come to believe in God.
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PaulC
Social climber
Traffic Jam Ledge
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May 18, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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Tony B & Largo,
Process theology.... Dang. Not exactly light reading. About the only accessible intro is Bob Mesle's book. Whitehead was incredibly brilliant in many diverse areas.
Paul
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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mom: sounds like you believe in the god of war, not the god of love. they say there are no atheists in foxholes. i wonder if your god could get on without it.
paul: i'm not into process like largo, and, as i said, i've gotten out of the part that i was in. i wish largo wouldn't talk down about it. if it were advanced physics it'd be a different story. he probably thinks i'm a flake anyway--like so many others, when the subject of 9/11 comes up, he's outa here. i think you only need the basic brains it takes to serve on a jury to see anomaly after anomaly and coverup after coverup, but, as with simpler things, you have to look, slightly before you can see.
griffin has already written three or four books on the subject, beginning with "new pearl harbor," which really put me onto it. he says he used to write books that put people to sleep. now he writes books that keep people awake at night.
BES1'st: parmenides is my favorite old greek. in a couple of rather short letters he made an important observation about truth: it seems to have an existence of its own, beyond what people to think it to be.
i'm no great genius at it, but i have studied a few languages, trying to do something with all the latin that was drummed into me in catholic high school. recently i took note of what appears to be a very interesting shift in meaning from ancient greek to modern greek in one of the words used by parmenides. "alitheia"--an absolutely beautiful word in itself--is the word, both ancient and modern, for truth. but "doxa", in ancient greek, meant opinion, at least as parmenides used it. he distinguished between alitheia, truth, with an existence of its own, and doxa, or what people think to be true, which may or may not correspond to truth. doxa is related to the word for teaching, and i'm not expert enough to trace its origin, but i was surprised to discover that in modern greek, "doxa" now means "glory". a rather common expression is "doxa to theo", or "glory to god". opinion--glory. and orthodoxy, of course, is "the right opinion". bears a bit on this discussion, don't you think?
buddhism seems a good foil to the religion of the west--very similar in so many ways, but they never deal with a "supreme being" and attendant mysticism. rather, they speak of enlightenment.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 19, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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i'm not a lawyer, BES, but i've had experience as a reporter covering courts. i fail to see a good reason for putting a lid on ANY matter before the courts. we used to be a much more open society, and we've become quite secretive and controlling, and the courts have become notorious for cooking up technical excuses to keep matters out of the public eye.
i don't know what you mean by laches. are you an attorney yourself? if you'd like to discuss this--it is off topic, but this thread seems to be winding down anyway--feel free to email me.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 19, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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i'd like to add a personal note here, and thanks for those who have been appreciative, and perhaps some apology to others.
i started life as a pretty good catholic little boy and pursued that course as far as i could. catholics are a little different from the mainstream of america, which i feel i'm dealing with here. fyi, my first wife was a lutheran, and i learned a lot from her about the independence and integrity of protestantism. catholics are pretty much led around by a ring through their noses, but i think they're closer to the heart of the christian tradition.
climbing has meant a lot to me--it helped me get over a divorce and gave me a lot of self-confidence, health, and appreciation of things i would never have known about otherwise. i'm not the sort of fellow who likes to get into people's faces, although my work as a newspaper reporter taught me a lot about the relativism of any given point of view.
anyway, what happens to us when we die?
i had some unexpected insight into that overtake me nel' mezzo di cammin di nostra vita--dante's words for the midlife crisis. this was not something i sought out, but i was privileged to become acquainted with a talented psychic and have some contact with three deceased relatives, people who had meant much to me and who seemed to have some unfinished business with me. i never would have sought such a thing out myself, but i came away with a sense that, yes, the heart does go on, as they say in the song from "the titanic", and it laid to rest the anxiety we all feel, believer or not, about our possible extinction at death. i would not be challenging things that are sacred to others if i had not gone through this. there are shyster psychics out there, but when you start hearing from a total stranger about things that happened 40 years previous a thousand miles away--well, it becomes pretty convincing.
i've tried to approach the issues of this very interesting discussion as they make sense to me. being mezzo italiano, i can be confrontational and emotional. italians seem to have a grace for doing that and remaining on speaking terms nonetheless. think of other italians you have known and try to take me with a grain of salt.
and sorry to have crossed swords with largo, whom i much admire and for whom we can all be thankful as an unusually approachable celebrity in our sport. i would not have done so were i not convinced of the importance of what is at stake.
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go-B
climber
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May 19, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Matthew 1:23,“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanuel”
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 19, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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Tony,
I enjoy reading your insight as a reporter.
When it comes down to it, all I can really say is that GOD is, and the Soul does go on. Hard to prove but by personal experience, and overwhelming evidence that most don't want to really check into.
George Harrison, before he passed away admonished people to seek after GOD. I agree. Keep seeking after GOD.
I don't know why, but my whole life I have always wanted to know the truth no matter what. Man it is painful sometimes. I run toward it, and many people run away from it.
he probably thinks i'm a flake anyway--like so many others, when the subject of 9/11 comes up, he's outa here. i think you only need the basic brains it takes to serve on a jury to see anomaly after anomaly and coverup after coverup, but, as with simpler things, you have to look, slightly before you can see.
griffin has already written three or four books on the subject, beginning with "new pearl harbor," which really put me onto it. he says he used to write books that put people to sleep. now he writes books that keep people awake at night.
I get it. I understand.
So true about Griffin. Lol. And I haven't been able to sleep since!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 07:59am PT
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klimmer, the words for me are beauty and truth, not god. beauty and truth i've come to trust over what has been a difficult personal life. god is a word i distrust greatly, both personally and generally.
god people jump to conclusions easily and wind up doing quite ungodlike things--witness "mom" glorifying war earlier in this thread and not seeming to care a whit about the wholesale worldrape being committed by this so-called nation under god. god easily becomes people's license to destroy nature or each other. all the trouble in the world right now seems to be focused on the middle east, the cradle of this troubled western tradition. god never brings people together. the idea seems to splinter us, no matter how close we start out. look at all the denominations it has produced, each one beginning with a quarrel. russians have fought passionately over whether to make the sign of the cross with two fingers or three.
one thing which rockclimbing taught me is that there can be pleasure in difficulty. this has been a difficult discussion--kinda like a good climb.
beauty and truth have an interesting relationship. the poet john keats noted that about the time michael faraday began discovering a similar relationship between electricity and magnetism, which today are understood as the same force. physics is tricky, like the subject of this discussion. there can be universal consensus, with a few pesky anomalies, and then someone like einstein comes along and makes very different sense of everything. and then niels bohr comes along and does the same thing to einstein. the important thing is to keep an open mind.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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BES--
since you live in orange, you'll be able to check this out.
drive over to santa ana and park in front of the ronald reagan federal courthouse. there are lots of cheapie parking meters there, and if you drive in towards the end of the day, you shouldn't have a problem.
walk into the courthouse lobby and look at the fantastic mural on the wall. this mural will blow your mind.
at the lower left of the mural, you will see a fellow who looks a hell of a lot like a rather young barack obama. he's about to mount a skateboard and head into this phantasmagoria. if you have any doubt that it's obama, notice that he's wearing a CHICAGO WHITE SOX BASEBALL CAP. i'm not kidding about this.
this mural was painted in the late 1990s and installed shortly before the building was opened in 1999.
there is a much-muffled controversy about alleged president obama. many have reported evidence that he was born in kenya, africa, not hawaii, and would therefore not meet the requirement of being a natural-born american citizen, as required by law to become president. there were several lawsuits to produce his birth records from hawaii, but these were all, ah, stonewalled, and birth certificates were never produced.
greek gps? hey, we can talk about anything here.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 20, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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I think it's so quiet because everyone's afraid BES1'st / navblk4 / midarockjock / 4damages will become their new friend.
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