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WBraun
climber
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I'm not playing any games.
I'm telling you the truth.
You're wrong.
The same God you are worshiping is being worshiped by the Muslims as Allah.
The transcendental sound vibrations of Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Madhava, etc. all are non different from God.
You are being challenged .....
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WBraun
climber
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Why would He die for the sins of the world if the didn't need Him to?
Not everyone on the planet is/was sinful as you so claim.
He was preaching to some very poor fund of knowledge class of people and that was his method according to time and circumstance.
Other bonafide representatives taught in different manners according to time and circumstance.
Jesus Christ was not the only bonafide teacher.
Only according to the Christian misinterpretations and understandings .....
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WBraun
climber
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You are taking the wide path WB.
No you are just guessing what a path is according to the bible only.
Jesus Christ was far more advanced than anything you've let on to how it's a narrow path.
Jesus Christ knew 100% that Allah, Madhava, is the God.
Even lord Buddha was God himself but ultimately preached an atheistic philosophy for a reason unknown to you.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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'dood'... Yes, I did say what convinced me I believed in a delusion, in many previous replies in this thread, to you and others... I even said as much in my last reply regarding my "conversion"... Reading comprehension fail: See, there is no "denial" here... That lies with you. I once believed, confidently, but came to SEE that I was drawing hope from a delusion, for reasons I outlined in previous replies to you, which you neglect to OBJECTIVELY weigh.
And, as to you thinking my reasoning is flawed regarding how could I be saved if I later realized there is no God, you reading comprehension needs work my friend, as I wrote:So, I "believed" and was "convinced", just as you are of the existance of Jesus... I even "believed" I saw him working in my life... Giving me strength. I just saw that I was wrong. It's not MY premise, that "once saved, always saved", it's yours. Think is, I "was saved", just as saved as you believe you are now. I later saw I was wrong, and believed in a delusion. But see, just like I said, you will do backflips in twisting your thinking in order to dismiss what I say, so now you do 'circular reasoning'... I couldn't have been saved then, since I am not now. You try to put it on me, saying that my "conversion" or "belief" was not real, since I don't believe now. Like I said, predictable people act predictably, which is why I said you would do this, and you did. Remember this:
OK, I'll play this game, to prove my point*...
[snip story of my conversion]
*Now, what's the point I'm proving in telling you my conversion stroy? I've already said it... You will only attempt to pick it apart, in order to dismiss it, so your belief "still can be true".
How do I know this? Because predictable people, are just that predictable. And what is required for you to maintain your beliefs makes you predictable. And, guess what... You proved my point!
See, what you are doing is trying to shoe-horn in this argument:
"If you were truely saved, it is because there IS a God, and since there is (according to you) and I no longer believe, I am a) either in denial that there is a God, or b) I was never truely saved, since, as you believe, once saved - always saved", both of which conveniently dismiss what I'm saying, so what you believe 'still can be true', but it is flawed circular logic, based on an a flawed axiom - That there IS a God, and that he is exactly what you believe him to be. What you are NOT considering, is that there is no God, and that it is a delusion... Not in the least... You absolutely cannot consider this, thus your thinking with limited tools, as you HAVE TO COME UP WITH THE SAME OUTCOME: THERE IS A GOD, AND IT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE. You cannot employ any tool, or line of reasoning that even has ther possibility of showing that you are wrong.
And, no, you HAVE NOT addressed my main point, which is that the very same arguments you use for the validity of your belief, can be used by any competing religion, yet you dismiss all others as wrong, yet the argument works for you. You know, just like you, they quote scripture too. What you are missing is you do the exact same things that you dismiss as false in all religions that compete with yours, but have NOT said why the arguments work for you, but not anyone else.
Even your answer to "If David Koresh...", and "If Jesus appearred to you and told you you are wrong...", as you answer boils down to, "I already know the truth!" As I said, even if you are wrong, there is nop way for you to see this. That midset is what I was able to get out of, and to objectively consider eberything, where you are hoplessly stuck in SUBJECTIVE thinking, leading you to "confirmation bias".
The FACTS and HISTORY are there, staring you in the face, but you avoid looking it in the eye... You just wave your hand, and say, "I know the truth", and will not even weigh it. You refuse to even put anything in your scales that doesn't fit into your box of dogma.
Why do I even try?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/09/25/notes092509.DTL
Again, this REALLY does surmise the problem with your thinking, and exactly what I'm trying to get you to see:
http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm
Just like in that article, you even make up your own answers, so it "still can be true"... 2nd animal Jesus mentioned in Matthew MUST be referring to his 2nd coming, 'yea... that's it'... Mohomad MUST have been approached by a demon, 'yea... that's it'... Jesus prayed to the Triune God, 'yea... that's it'... "Allah", the same Aramaic word for God that Jesus used MUST be a different God, 'yea... that's it'... Shall I go on?
'My belief doesn't come from the Bible', but all you do is quote scripture in many of your arguments -- and even of John, no less... Do you know what most Biblical scholars think of John, and the value of that Gospel? And "Jesus" didn't say anything in the Bible... The Bible is a collection of what OTHER PEOPLE WAY AFTER THE FACT, WHO NEVER EVEN MET HIM, SAID HE SAID, OF WHICH MUCH IS CONTRADICTORY. Are you familiar with the Synoptic Gospel Problem, and/or the Jesus Seminar? Note that the Jesus Seminar is composed mostly of theologians and academic clergy. Buit then, hey, all those academic Christians MUST be wrong, since it doesn't fit into your box of dogma. And who's right? ONLY the ones who agree with you, and your narrow interpretaion.
So... Curious... Some simple questions here...
Care to declare your position on these?
1. How old do you think the universe and Earth are?
2. Have human beings evolved into what we are today, meaning, some time ago, we were NOT human beings?
3. Did God flood the world, killing all, sans Noah and his family, and all the animals he took on the Ark?
4. Did Jonah live for 3 days in the belly of a fish/whale?
5. Did Jesus know, all along, that he was going to end up crucified?
6. When does the soul FIRST inhabit the body?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Indeed, made part of the family of God by the saving work of redemption of Christ!
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Matthew 13:9, He who has ears, let him hear.”
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jesus knows what He's talking about...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
John 8:58, Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Does go-B stand for "God Bot"?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 10, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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So after 4000 plus posts the god haters are plum worn out and have fled the field
You're such a flippant buffoon sometimes.
Your so-called "god-haters" are religious critics.
You should thank God this morning you live in America - with just enough of a glut of religious critics that it is not Iran or Afghanistan.
I knew it would turn out this way.
My, you ARE the genius.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 08:46am PT
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I'm reading a very interesting book: The Evolution Of God by Robert Wright. It covers the development of religions from early animism and shamans to our present day "Jihads."
It just thought I'd throw that out there for anyone really seriously asking the question.
It's a fascinating read. I can't wait to see how it ends!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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another one in that vein, phil-g, is god: a biography by jack miles, a former jesuit priest who spent a lot of time in rome and the middle east and then decided to up and get married.
this book won the pulitzer prize one year for ... biography. some might think it ought to have been for fiction. it produced the most amusing book review i ever read, by paul wilkes in the l.a. times, where god jots a note back to miles for this rather unauthorized biography:
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-04-09/books/bk-52454_1_god-biography-jack
a similar book, the origin of satan by elaine pagels, deals with the evolution of the devil, good old (bad old) satan-lucifer, who actually started out as one of those angels who put people to the test. it seems satan really came into his own when rigorous orthodoxies showed up and he got to play the role of being responsible for the wrong beliefs of the other guy.
miles became an episcopalian, a handy shelter for those who can't live by catholic rules but have become addicted to its beliefs and comforts. i suspect that our overposting gobee has had a similar current in his life. pagels was pretty much an agnostic scholar until hit with a double punch of personal tragedy, when she says it felt so good to walk into that baptist church where the black folks were singing so fervently.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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What the world needs is for an Engineer to redesign religion, make it better than it was before.
dingus, i've been through this before with huffy, but here's the prospectus:
i represent belief systems, incorporated.
having trouble out there in the big bad universe? things not making sense? feeling ill-at-ease, queasy, even a little depressed? before you take the test for lyme disease, consider that you may well be suffering the effects of the wrong belief system.
there are so many belief systems out there. a lot of them work well for a lot of people, but if yours puts you off balance, you may well need a new one, tailored especially to your karma, charisma, chrism and jism, the right geist for your zeitgeist.
come to belief systems, inc. our expert system engineers will exam every nook and cranny of your misery and construct the edifice of belief which will give you a new lease on life, improve your score in the dating game, bring untold wealth and power, and perhaps even jack you up a full tenth higher on the YDS. two letter grades are guaranteed. this for a modest advance on the reasonable tithe to be levied on certain health, prosperity and, dare we say, ecstasy (now, now), or at least, rapture.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 11, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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Psalm 124:8, Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 11, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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"So after 4000 plus posts the god haters are plum worn out and have fled the field, leaving the faithful as strong as ever, proselytizing away.
Enlighten me if possible, DMT. Do you consider all the posters to this thread to be either god haters or faithful?
If there are other categories, do they count for anything?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 11, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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It is a study in madness
Hundreds of years after christ a subset of people decided they could be "better" than the obnoxious christians. They would actually follow the christian story literally and stone people to death. And so they do until today. It has been 1200 years of outdoing the Jones's."
How can you do anything but laugh?
Someone is always trying to burn you at the stake. But at the least, you know what is really happening.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 12, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Yeah, that DMT rascal is certainly an enigma wrapped in a riddle. 9 out of 10 of his posts are spot-on, so it's strange when they're not.
.....
Yeah, criticizing religion is feckless, therefore silly, stupid. Also any musings or efforts directed toward potential new belief systems beyond traditional belief (religions that rely on supernaturalist doctrines) are silly stupid, too.
Yeah, that's the thinking I sometimes lapse into, too. -When I spend too much time talking it up in pop culture down at the Mall or in Walmart. Then I recall the 19th century naysayer who answered musings or attempts at flying something "heavier than air" with "That's crazy! If God wanted us to fly, he would've made us birds." Today's youth probably cannot relate, but yeah, that really happened.
Of course an irony here is that DMT is a high-freq flier. Haha.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 12, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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at last this thread has produced ripe fruit! dr. F, who began as a crusty skeptic, now talks to jesus every day! he'll be the next reverend moon!
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