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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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Then you are in poor fund of knowledge .....
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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I just liked the #.
No agenda, thanks!
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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Why not? Believe in God? Are you too smart for a god? Think about it?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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No I never every disrespected Jesus Christ.
He is bonafide saktyavesa-avatara of the Christians.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 30, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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There is this idea - and I remind you, it is not only my idea but the growing idea of umpteen million others - that we are our material-based lifeworks, the sum total of our machinery of life. So the question again, how much time have you tried to adapt to this idea, to come to grips with this idea - psychologically - instead of fighting it - to see if it is as bad for belief, as bad for the practice of living, as many a naysayer would have us believe.
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I think these are valid questions. They are also age-old questions which have not been changed much by technological advances insofar as human nature hasn't changed much. The content of our rational minds also does not alter the basic questions, which were looked at in fantastic detail by Yalom and existential psychology in the 80s and beyond. There are many more questions beyond the decline and demise of our bodies and psyches and egos. The work is in staying with the discomfort to realize, at depth, that we are not, at the most basic level, the "machinery of life." Those are only forms, ever mutating, the coming and going dance of the "eternally nameless" Tao.
JL
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 30, 2010 - 07:17am PT
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dood...
Again, you don't know me, and, as I said, you would just dismiss me being a "born again Christian" (you know what that means, right?), by saying I must not truely have believed... Which is EXACTLY what you did. I need not go into how, I believed, he came into my life and heart, other than to say it was similar to yours, and I was just as confident.
But you just CANNOT accept this, so you have to dismiss it, and the only way you can do that is to think: I must not have truely accepted him. Flawed thinking.
As far as Allah goes... It is simply the Aramaic word for God. Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic, and, as a practicing Jew, he fell prostrate to (as per the Torah) and prayed to "God", which he called "Allah". The Abrahamic religions are mainly Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and they ALL three worship the same God (the God of Abraham), as they all three use the OT, just as you do. Do you know what other religion falls prostrate to and prays to Allah? Muslims. The Qur'an even refers to Mary, mother of Jesus, more by name than does the NT, and they too are awaiting the 2nd coming of Jesus. Like I said, same God... But NONE of that fits within your small box of dogma, so you must reject and deny it, even though simply looking outside of your box will show this to be true, and irrefutable.
So, if you can "step out of your box of dogma" for a second, and really think about it... Muslims pray in the same manner, and to the ssame God that Jesus did. You, however, DO NOT EVEN PRAY TO THE SAME GOD JESUS DID!... You pray to Jesus, and he would rebuke you for this.
But... Just as you need to dismiss my previous 'conversion', in order for everything in your box of dogma to "make sense", you do the same to the Muslims, in falsely believing that they have a different God. Their God, is the God of the OT, just as was Jesus', and all Jews.
Which highlights, that you didn't really answer my question... "Why if Muslims can use the EXACT same arguments as you do, they are wrong, but you are right?"
Imagine a Muslim in this thread, posting up his "personal conversion experience" in this thread as evidense of his God... Would you accept this? Would you believe it is genuine evidence that his idea of God is correct? If not, then WHY, as that's what you expect us to do? Saying "Well, it's the wrong God" isn't an answer, as again, they could say that to you as well.
See... (your words, with two words changed)I have nothing "skewed". Christianity is a religion, and Jesus is their god.
That is their "dogma"!!
I don't believe in their dogma, religion, or their god!
See how that works? I'll bet you don't, though. Works only for you.
As Johannes Keply said:
"...the truth emerges only when all ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside."
But, you are blind to any truth but your own, as "ideology, prejudice and dogma" are strong within you, and you cannot see past it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 30, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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L, that's quite a paragraph you wrote there.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 30, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Largo wrote:
"The content of our rational minds also does not alter the basic questions, which were looked at in fantastic detail by Yalom and existential psychology in the 80s and beyond."
Please recommend some books/publications/websites on this subject. This sounds like material in line with my thought. I'd like to read more.
Post or send me a personal message.
Thanks for your time responding to my query.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 30, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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I'm reminded of something Carl Sagan mentioned in Cosmos. It was something like: Since there are 100 gazillion books in the world and you can't get to them all in a lifetime, choose wisely.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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High Fructose said:
"there are 100 gazillion books in the world and you can't get to them all in a lifetime, choose wisely."
Indeed. I shall waste no more time on the Bible or the Koran.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Extra, extra get your good news right here...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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So I invite you to share your conversion experience like I have so graciously done so. Where exactly do you stand? Are you "born again Christian."? And to answer your question, of course I know what a "born again Christian " is!! I am one!!! What is your point? My POINT is that, even if I share with you my "conversion experience", you MUST dismiss it, since, yes I am an atheist, as you believe that once saved, always saved, and this is wrong... I prove that.
The details of my "conversion", and acceptance of Jesus into my heart, won't really matter to you, as NO MATTER WHAT, you will dismiss it as not as meaningful as yours, and this is flawed logic. But you MUST do this so what you believe "still can be true". Can you think of ANYTHING I can write, that you won't try to just pick apart, looking for differences, so you can dismiss it, and you can "still be right"?
Let's just say that after he came into my life, I believed with all of my heart that he was with me, and I eagerly partcipated in witnessing, camps, and lived that life. I was 100% sure of his existance, not 99.99%, 100%!!! But, see, you dismiss this, as it just must not have been the case... You MUST believe that I had some reservation, but it's NOT the case.
YEARS after living that life, I simply began to seriously consider things that didn't fit inside my "box of dogma", and the more I looked, the more I saw that what I believed just didn't match up to reality, nor was it even plausible.
Just as I said, that if Jesus were to appear to you, and tell you himself that you are very wrong in your belief that hsi death wins you salvation, you would deny him, since it isn't what you "want to believe". At the very least, you would demand proof, and if he gave it to you, you would find a reason to still deny him. YOU ONLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO, PERIOD!
And, as far as conversions and 'proofs' go... I have a collegue here at work who truely believes, 100%, "that her grandmother couldn't afford new teeth, and had dental desease that was making her sick... She prayed to Jesus one night, and awoke with all new teeth... Even the dentists couldn;t explain it!" She was told this when she was 8, by her grandmother, and she believes it, and cites this as proof of the existance of Jesus as God. Yea! OK...
Now, I'm sure you "interpret" your experience as supernatural too, all I can say is: Yea! OK...
I'm sure you dismiss this guy's "testimonial" as well:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3884
Sad... His family even turned their backs on him when he became an atheist.
And I did not limit my suggestions as to what you currently believe, to you singularly being "never really born again". I don't know where you stand. I assumed you are an atheist, therefore I said you must either be in denial(if you indeed had a born again commitment/experience) or etc. You, of course, latched on to the "I must not truly have believed" and furthermore added "which is EXACTLY what you did." And you are either blind, or short on memory, because I also added "in denial" and so forth! Please tell me(us)...where do you stand? Are you a Muslim? I was under the assumption that you were an atheist, and were of the mindset that there is no God. If that is the case, and you believe that there is no God, then you never "truly" had a relationship with Jesus, because He doesn't exist as far as you are concerned!! He never existed(as far as you are concerned)so how could you have had an experience with The Living Word, if, as you believe, He doesn't exist?
Within this one paragragh, you state that I am wrong in you simply dismissing what I'm saying regarding my previous status as a born again, by say that "I must not truely have believed", then you say, I must not truely have believed, else I'd still be saved. This is exactly what I said you would do, and you did it, denied doing it, but still do it. Because, again, I MUST not have been, so your belief "still can be true", as if my conversion was genuine, then it means your belief is wrong. Easier for you to just deny my being a born again. Flawed thinking.
rrrADAM- "All three use the Old Testament."
This is true. But they include their own book, the Koran, which comes first and foremost in regards to their beliefs. And they do not believe that the OT and the NT are infallible. And they certainly do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. They consider Him a mere prophet, even lower then Mohamed(their prophet). We do not believe that Mohamid was indeed a prophet of God. We believe he was a false prophet, and the angel whom appeared to him was actually a demon, not an angel sent from God!.
Same goes for the Jews, of which Jesus and his mother were. Tis their religion Christians have hijacked, just as the Muslims hijacked Judaism as well. You also look to the NT first, as the Muslims do the Qur'an. And of course you believe that Mohamad was approached by a demon... You have to ratinalize a erason to dismiss their belief, so yours "still can be true".
See, the thing you miss is... When you truely understand WHY you dismiss all other religions, you will understand why I dismiss yours. But, just as Muslims can easily see the delusion in Christians, they cannot in themselves, since they are in their own box of dogma. Same goes for you... You can easily see the delusion in Muslims, or any competing faith, but not your own, since you are hopelessly stuck inside your box... Seeking only to allow things insode your box that reaffirm your belief, but reject ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that does not fit within the box. As exampled by my experiance as a born again. Even to the point of using grossly flawed thinking to dismiss things that just don't fit.
Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
rrrADAM- "Muslims pray in the same manner, and to the same God that Jesus did."
This is not true. Jesus prayed to God the Father, the Triune God of the Trinity. The Godhead: "Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name..." He referred to Him as Father through out the New Testament. Again, DENIAL!!!
Jesus was a practicing Jew, most likely an Essene, meaning he lived his life by a pretty strict code, and he prayed as the OT outlined... He fell prostrate to, and prayed to "Allah", the aramaic word for God, which is what he mainly spoke.
And AGAIN... The God of the OT, is the God of Abraham, so both Jews and Muslims, and Jesus, ALL prayed to this God. You do NOT, regardless of how you choose to rationalize it. Again, more denial, so that what you want to believe "still can be true". It is Christians, NOT the Muslims who have 'changed' the God of Abraham, and the OT, to suit them. Again... Jews, Jesus, and Muslims all pray(ed) to the same God. You do not.
And Jesus didn't pray to the "Triune God of the Trinty"... The idea of the Trinity didn't even come about until the 4th century, during the 1st Council of Nicaea. You lack a deep understanding of the history of your belief system, as one major reason for this convening of this council was to fight Arianism, which is/was the belief that Jesus, while of divine nature, was NOT God himslef, but more a divine "creation" of God, sent to do his work.
Again... Look outside you box of dogma. Not that I think you will, but regarding that, you can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Note, that from there, you can look into the 1st Council, and even the history of the belief in the "Trinity".
See all of the above... Much of this is what I actually considered, OBJECTIVELY, that lead me to see the delusion that I was in... No different than the delusion I could easily see in other religions, and even within other sects of Christianity. You, however, dismiss all of this because you only look at it SUBJECTIVELY, and most often through a soda straw, because you want to believe what you want to believe, and that influences your ability to be objective.
Morton's Demon is very strong in you, my friend.
(Note - The authour of this found his own way out of his "box of dogma" in terms of believing in a young Earth.)
To highlight this type of thinking, I wrote this some time ago, and it appies to you 100%:
Note... If you are unfamiliar with the Branch Davidians you should read up on it first, here's a great source of information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Dividian
Imagine for a moment that David Koresh, whom we all know was killed allong with many of his followers in Waco, TX when his compound burned, reappeared and claimed to be resurrected, which is proof of his claim to be the Messiah.
He was willing to prove this by submitting to DNA tests, to prove that it really was him, and that he had in fact been resurected from the dead.
To move through this quickly, we will state that the entire process of DNA verification has been thorough and transparent. (i.e. Previous DNA samples from him and his family prove a valid standard, DNA confirmation of his burnt corpse, and present DNA, transparent and perfect chain of custody of samples, perfect lab practices to preclude contaminations, and all this has even been tripple verified at 2 other labs independantly, who collected their own samples, etc... Hell, for good measure he even turned the Sparklets water to wine in the labs, simply by touching the bottle on the cooler, as we'll say he has a sense of humor.)
And any other tests asked of him, he performed and passed.
Now... My point is, that I do NOT currently believe in the supernatural, because there is absolutely no 'evidence' of it... But that I would be forced to believe that he has been resurected, despite my 'strong belief' that it would be impossible, as I would now see overwhelming evidence that it is possible, and in fact has happened. I would believe it, and would reconsider my atheism. So I am open minded enough to consider any evidence, and let it lead me where it takes me, despite my present views.
How about the 'faithfull'... Would they believe it ??? Would they believe that something that's prophecised in their 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would they put all their faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be their Messiah ???
If not, then why not ??? It has been prophecised, it even comes with proof--proof that cannot be explained away, or even reasonably doubted. Would it be because it doesn't fit with what they want to happen--their hopes ??? For those who forsake him, David even asks them directly, "What would it take for you to believe I am the Messiah?" Would they believe it if he provided that proof as well ???
Now, given the above, please answer the question I posed in it ???
How about the 'faithfull'... How 'bout you, 'dood'? Would you believe it ??? Would you believe that something that's prophecised in your 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would you put all of your faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be your Messiah ???
See, I'd have to believe it, but would you ???
Point is, I am more open minded that you 'think you are', as I am guided by the evidence, more so than my wants and desires... You are guided by your desire to maintain your faith, and that desire influences what you see as reality, as no matter what, if it doesn't agree with what you believe, in your core, you will ultimately deny it... And come up with some rationalization. Even Jesus himself, if he were to return and tell you that you have your head up your arse, you would deny him.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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OK, I'll play this game, to prove my point*...
When I was 14 my dad died, bad circumstances... Lived with uncle, who was a Lutheran, so was "taught" that way of life, but just went, never REALLY believed.
Then his marriage broke up, he couldn't afford to keep me an my cousin, and asked my mon to take me back. Didn't want me. Ended up in group homes and fostor homes, and juvie when one wasn't available (long story, not relevant).
Through all that time, I never really believed, and just went through the motions... Mainly consisting of praying at night.
Then, I ran away from a group home that was terrible and abusive, got caught and ended up in juvie again.
At that time, feeling isolated and alone, and in tears, I started reading the Bible in earnest, then fell to my knees and asked Jesus to "help me". I felt an overwhelming sense of peace and hope come into me at that time. I BELIEVED at this time. I FELT him, just as much as I feel the love for my kids today. Convinced that he was in my heart, and sought only to improve my connection to him, and to do his will.
For the next several years, I lived as a "born again"... Reading the Bible, attending camps, church, witnessing, etc. These weren;t things I was TOLD TO DO... They were things I WANTED to do... I loved him just as much as I was convinced he loved me. Even in times of great dispare, I still felt his love for me, and that gave me hope.
Note - This came to a head when I was working the 2nd Step in a revovery program, as I am currently 22 years clean and sober, and that step deals with a "higher power". That step took me quite some time. And, get this, I even sponsor people who are Christians, and if that works for them, great. It's a higher power of their understanding, not mine. And, my wife is a Cathy (although she's really a Protty, but doesn't know it), and I was there when my kids were baptized, as it was important to my in-laws.
OK... There. Now what? How is the story of my conversion any less valid than is yours? Because your's was/is longer?
See, there is no "denial" here... That lies with you. I once believed, confidently, but came to SEE that I was drawing hope from a delusion, for reasons I outlined in previous replies to you, which you neglect to OBJECTIVELY weigh.
Now, how about going back and addressing the very things I've taken the time to compose, instead of switching the topic, and ignoring it. Just address the points in my last post, OK? ALL of them, not just "cherry picking", and ignoring the meat. I gave, now it's your turn.
Seriously... I you believe you have "reasonable answers" to my points, then you should have no problem "reasonably" articulating them... As the one "pulling teeth" here, is me trying to get you to address some very simple points.
I even pointed out where you have a totally incorrect view of the very history of some of your beliefs, yet you just "ignore" it. Easier to "deny" that way, huh?
*Now, what's the point I'm proving in telling you my conversion stroy? I've already said it... You will only attempt to pick it apart, in order to dismiss it, so your belief "still can be true".
How do I know this? Because predictable people, are just that predictable. And what is required for you to maintain your beliefs makes you predictable. Sorry you view this as arrogance, but, hey, it's not like I can "beat around the bush" with you.
As Thomas Jefferson said:
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."
Now, what makes much of what you believe "unintelligible propositions"? Your denial of facts and history... Like your incorrect view that Muslims worship a different God than that of the OT. Your statement that Jesus worshipped a "Triune God". Defending the obvious contradictions in the Bible, yet believing that it is without flaw. I can go on if you like, but you have a view of reality and history that is incorrect, and even when this is pointed out to you, you REFUSE to "objectively" look to see if you are wrong... You just regergitate rationalizations and denial.
Which, is what I couldn't do, and that lead to me seeing the "true light", that I was living in a delusion.
So, I "believed" and was "convinced", just as you are of the existance of Jesus... I even "believed" I saw him working in my life... Giving me strength. I just saw that I was wrong.
Hell, if a person really "believes" that wearing the same underwear during the World Series will have an impact, they draw HOPE from it, as if they believe that, but forget to wear the underear, they are truely worried. But, it's a "false hope", as it's all in the head, isn't it? But, even though it's all in the head, it still has a very REAL effect on their psyche, doesn't it?
EDIT: Sorry to sound like such a weenie about this now, but if you look back, my original replies to you were much more cordial, yet still direct. It is all the ignoring of most of my points, and throwing out blatently false facts and histories that tries my patience... I don't to willful ignorance well, or repeating myself trying to get an answer well either... My bad.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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BTW, I have been studying scripture since before you were born.
Are you familiar with the logic fallacy: Argument from authority?
Again ^10... Your few answers can be used by any other competing religion, yet you believe them correct only for yours. And this is what you will not address.
Like I said... Even if Jesus appeared to you himself and told you that you were all wrong, you would deny him, as you will only believe what you want to believe. Try to think about that for a while, then when it clicks, report back.
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WBraun
climber
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Jesus Christ was son of God and direct messenger of the God himself.
The same God Jesus Christ worshiped is also worshiped by the Muslims.
There's only ONE God and he has unlimited forms.
Why this daDood guy think that Christians are the only ones that worship God and that the only God is theirs.
DaDood do you even know what God looks like?
The Supreme Lord is not the exclusive sole property of the so called Christians only .....
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WBraun
climber
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We are body, soul, and spirit
We are not the body. The material body is the vehicle we operate from.
Soul and spirit are not two independent.
The soul is spirit .....
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WBraun
climber
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DaDood
Jesus Christ said you are wrong .....
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