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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Not sure I follow you, Tony... "I" haven't vanquished anything.
And axioms do not need 'consensus', but rather, they MUST truely be of the nature that they do not need proof. In fact, 'consensus' can be a problem, as if it's incorrect, 'consensus' only reinforces an incorrect axiom.
Example... 1 + 1 = 2, and so forth (the axiom)... Because this is true, and 'self-evident', we can use this to be CERTAIN that 124,099,001 + 347,001,301 = 471,100,302 without someone having to count it all out to "prove" it.
Now, one can say (and a few actually have to me, I believe even in this thread pages back regarding the Big Bang), "Yea... But how do we KNOW that 1 + 1 has ALWAYS equaled 2?"
Ever heard someone who believes in the creation of the universe as per Genisis counter with, "Well, one day is a 1,000 years to God"? (see 2 Peter 3:8) And fully believe that they've found their out, that it "still can be true". Problem is, we have no reason to believe that, AND, even if it were true... ~13.4 BILLION - 6,000 years, is still ~13.399994 BILLION.
And the answer to previous question, "How do we know 1 + 1 has always equalled 2", is... We have absolutely no reason to believe it hasn't, since all through recorded history, there has never been a case of it not being true. BUT, people will use this type of flawed logic to dismiss what doesn't fit into their 'box of dogma'. Even if a large group of people arrive at this concensus, it still won't be true, BUT they will reinforce an incorrect belief with each other in order to dismiss a correct axiom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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The problem with these threads is that they are beholden to, and suffer from (I might add) religious language, constructs, yada, yada.
What's more, they are populated by climbers who are clinging by last thin threads to the old notion of there being a "ghostly spirit" in the machine (when there is none) way more than by climbers willing and able to invest their energies to come to grips with the scientifically supported view that they are molecular machines, material bodies, which borrow their life energy (or life spirit) for a short time, yada, yada.
So round n round it goes. For awhile still...
Get a grip, fellas. Geez, I thought you were climbers.
Willing to explore on the wild side. So show it.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Largo... What reason to believe that:
1. There is a spirit/soul, of the etheral type?
2. Considering everything that you believe the spirit/soul to be (non-material), were to someday soon, have just one, or more aspects of it explained naturally, thus reducing those aspects to material, will/would that change you mind at all regarding exsistance of the spiriot/soul, or will/would you just move the goal post, so to speak, and say, "Well, what about the rest? You can't explain that."
(Sorry for the run on sentence.)
See... It seems like you are confident only in this where it cannot be explained, yet. But what if some of it were explained? Would that lessen your confidence?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Forget it, rAdam.
I tried long ago to get Largo out of his shell and to be specific, he won't come forth.
.....
For instance, I asked him (a) how much time have you actually spent with the material biological model, how much have you tried to adapt to it? to come to grips with it? to take it for a test drive? to "work it in" to your belief system - just to see if you could engage in the "practice" of living in its terms.
But like the others, he just won't try. Too scary or something.
So I didn't even proceed to (b). :)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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nice avatar image there Largo...
I'll attempt to avoid its metaphor
I don't disagree with your assessment
thoughts need not be about something that is real to be real themselves
experience which is real may be in response to something perceived but that thing may not exist outside of that experience
while science using materialism (whatever that is, really) may explain us physically, it will never explain our individual experiences exactly, their meaning to us or their value
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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rrrADAM- "what you feel in your heart guides you to the truth..."
Let me make it very clear that I had enough faith to call on His name that afternoon in 1957..."Jesus please help me!" It was this "faith" that He responded to.
"We live by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7
I had heard of Him, that He claimed to be God, and that He loved little children. I will be forever grateful to the Roman Catholic nun who shared this much with me. In 1957 we were still given the choice of attending the denomination of our choice once a week for prayer, etc during the last hour of school once a week. Or we could stay in class for secular activities. Evidently I had given this some consideration, and it payed off that afternoon. He saved me physically from a serial killer(alleged to have murdered more then thirty young boys). He also initiated a spiritual relationship with me. No matter what would have happened after that day, I new that He, Jesus Christ, was God. That is who He presented Himself as.
rrrADAM- "What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?"
NOTHING!
Let me ask you this question. What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong about your father, son, wife/brothers, etc. existence? He is that real to me, and in many ways even more so.
A while back on this thread I did a brief synopsis on how we are "body, soul, and spirit." You are looking at it from a material/physical or worldly standpoint. You are using reason, and looking for a rational(in the physical sense)explanation. But you are completely void of a spiritual awareness, or even the possibility of one existing. You are the one with the closed mind, you have decided that He doesn't exist because YOU can not find physical evidence of His exsistance.
rrrADAM- "Following your heart alone can get you into trouble..."
This is true! And thank God that I don't follow my own heart. I met and know JC, and I follow Him(and growing in this relationship).
rrrAdam- "You state that you don't bother yourself much with the Bible, as far as your confident belief goes, yet, IT IS THE SOURCE OF YOUR BELIEF..."
Once again, I new without a shadow of a doubt that He, Jesus Christ, was God at the very moment He intervened and entered my life/heart. As far as reading the Bible(The Living Word)I have that same confidence that He was/is capable of giving His Church(Believers)the scriptures that guide us and so forth(whole other subject that could be covered). I read, study, and meditate on the Holy Scriptures on a daily basis...
Your personal thoughts, or the picture you paint of the Christian God is from a very limited viewpoint/perspective. And you have denied Him, and any personal knowledge of Him, access to your life.
Thanks for the most excellent questions and observations. Please keep in mind that I do not have a degree in theology, nor have I studied for a pastoral position, etc. just personal experience, observations, and study of scripture every now and then.
1. I asked you, and you totally ignored this part, that why is it that a Muslim can say the exact same things that you say, "they feel it in their heart... evidenced in their lives", yet they OBVIOUSLY (to you) would be wrong, yet to you, this is proof positive. So, again, why, if a Muslim in theis thread, were to say the exact same things you say, regarding "their belief" would they be wrong, yet you are right? Specifically, what would the difference be?
2. I was once a born again christian, and felt much the same way you did, and was equaly as confident in my beliefs, so you don't claim some "secret knowledge"... Which IS what you are doing. You are arguing from a point of authority, based on your "experiences". The same ones that you would NOT believe from a Muslim (see #1).
3. I don't have to prove the existance of my relatives, they exist, and ANYONE can verify that... Even anybody who may initially believe they don't exist. To even attempt to put the two, obvious and verifiable fact vs. unverifiable supernatural belief, in the same context is a pretty huge leap in flawed logic. But then again, you have to justify the fact that NOTHING can convince you that there isn't a dfragon in your garage:
The Dragon In MY Garage by Carl Sagan
4. My knowledge of Jesus is NOT very limited, as a) I research theology, especially Christian theology, and b) I used to be a born again Christian (see #2). In fact, in regards to my precious belief, that "proves" that this is incorrect:
One saved, always saved
But then you MUST say that "I cannot know him", as a simple means of dismissing what I say outright. Do you know what fallacy that is?
Now, of course, oyu wqill just believe, confidently too, that "I cvouldn't have believed like you do", so... What makes you so sure of this? You don;t even know me, but you are "certain" that I could noty have believed as you do now... So, seriously, what makes you so certain? The answer is, you MUST believe that, in order to dismiss what I have to say.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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HFCS... I am very interested in what Largo has to say, as I have spoken with him before in the past about this, and even have some CDs he gave me, but I have failed to actually attempt do the techniques described in them. (Sorry, John)
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 28, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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You see the manifestation of God's creation all around us, they aren't God Himself, but it's apart of Him!
When you do something like climbing, skiing, driving on windy roads etc. where you are committed to it, hopefully you are in the moment, and reacting to it! Even when your reading something you have to be open and alert to take it in, and at that time you are not aware of yourself, none the less you are there! We are fearfully and wonderfully made!
Edit; 1 John 2:19, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
My pastor say's that those that do leave, were not real believers to begin with?
But I know God never gives up on us, and I'm living proof!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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as i understand axiom, rrradam, it's a pillar on which you build a logical structure. the pillar may be self-evident, easily proven, or commonly accepted--using your example, celestial bodies revolve around the earth, which nobody contested for years. but eventually the axiom was disproved and the logical structure built on it fell down.
fine. but--you got some axioms of your own now? certainly, the earth revolves around the sun. i never figured that out for myself, but i'm going by a pretty big consensus. but we're talking about more than the earth and the sun here, we're arguing about that god entity.
dr. F seems to think that god has to do something, something which can be proven. well, how about the big bang? something happened there. maybe god did it, maybe there's another explanation, i don't think anyone has the final answer yet. for me, god might have done it, so god remains an open question. kinda like the bridges of königsberg, but that was an easy one to reason out. this one's a little harder. my quarrel with dr. F is that, just because you can't prove god did anything, you can't prove god didn't do it either. not being able to prove that god did something doesn't disprove the existence of god.
let's see here
Sir, , hence, god exists--reply!
voila!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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there may be hope for you yet, tony...
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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Ephesians 2:20, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
1 Peter 2:6, For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 07:33am PT
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my quarrel with dr. F is that, just because you can't prove god did anything, you can't prove god didn't do it either. not being able to prove that god did something doesn't disprove the existence of god.
Using this logic...
Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
Now, since you cannot, does that mean that you must accept the possibility that I, rrrADAM, am really God, testing the waters in this thread to see what ya'll believe about me?
If no, then why not? Same argument: You cannot disprove I am not God, therefore, you cannot discount it, and must consider the possibility. As that IS the jist of that argument.
Now, why isn't it equally absurd for the 'faithful' to so easily discount and dismiss all other Gods, except their own, when the same argument(s) can be made for all other Gods that they make for their own?
IMHO, I believe the answer to be, because it isn't what they "want" to believe... It isn't the way they "want" to see the world. As in their belief (any religion), it is THEY who are right, and all others wrong... This is self-righteousness, and it gives its believers a sense of empowerment, entitlement, and superiority... For it is they who are saved, and know the one true God (again, any religion), have that God on THEIR side, and even believe that praying (wishing) may result in that God intervening on their behalf and altering or influencing an outcome for which they have no control in some way to benifit them.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 29, 2010 - 08:12am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Jesus held back nothing from us, even death on a cross, and loves us with an everlasting love!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
easy to do, rrradam. you're obviously a human being. if you want to pretend to be god, you've got to act a lot holier.
william saroyan (1908-1981): "Everybody has got to die, but I have always believed an exception would be made in my case. Now what?" (he actually wrote that in the 1930s, but he did eventually die.)
only one human being pretended to be/was god (your choice there), and since that human being may have overcome the extinction of death, for me it remains an open question. lots of apparently normal people believe that, lots of other apparently normal people don't.
if we are to consider that you are god, rrradam, perhaps we could prove/disprove that by trying to kill you. i would prefer to spare you that risk and begin by trying to determine an axiom, such as i've been trying to squeeze out of dr. F. what is the standard we would have to hold you to for this premise?
if we were tribal folk, ignorant of the modern world, and you landed in our jungle clearing in a helicopter, we might think you were god, or at least a god. if you pointed to the local volcano and it erupted when you held up your hand and stopped erupting when you put your hand down, we'd probably conclude you were god almighty. me, i'd want you to make the sun go backwards in its track as well. but even if you were able to do all that, gobee might still think you were the devil, since he believes jesus is the only human version of god. he'd consider it one of those tests, like god did with job. as i believe i once established on a klimmer thread, god enjoys making side bets. perhaps if einstein had read the book of job more carefully, he may not have quarreled with niels bohr.
(it wasn't a vicious quarrel:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Niels_Bohr_Albert_Einstein_by_Ehrenfest.jpg);
so you see, the problem here is agreeing on the axiom, don't you think?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 10:52am PT
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Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
easy to do, rrradam. you're obviously a human being. if you want to pretend to be god, you've got to act a lot holier.
Flawed logic...
Zeus, and many other Gods, as well as Jesus, assumed human form. And, remember, if I am God, I can do anything I want. Not to mention, that you have never, ever, met me, so how do you know I am a human? All assumtions.
You disproved nothing, other than my point that people believe "what they want to be true". Since nobody want me to be God, it's easy to not believe, but what REASON does one have for not believing so?
Like I said, nobody can disprove it... It's up to me to prove it, if I want people to believe it. And I'm not trying to pretend I'm God, but rather show the flaw in your argument that, "since something cannot be disproved, it MUST be considered possible."
Remember, many people believe that God flooded the Earth, killed first born sons, burned entire cities (man, that's a lot of killing he did, even of innocent infants, but that's another story), allowed a man to live in the belly of a fish/whale for three days, etc... So, as many believe, 'back in the day', he was more than willing to show himself pretty dirrectly, but not at all now, why? Because all of that is myth.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Nov 29, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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RRR...I may be wrong trying to remember my Greek mythology but Zeus and others did not have human form, thus the myth in ology. They were worshiped by cults, had alters made of ashes from sacrifices. ..... So at this point your observation is flawed
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 29, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
Ooh, let me try!
Do you have a book thousands of years old written about you that people have used to exert their dominion over others, justify genocide, rape, child molestation, torture, deny scientific fact, prevent progress, create an elite cult of leaders who can only be joined by arcane rituals and rules laid out in other supporting texts?
No? Not god...
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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luggi... Zeus took human form, as well as animal form, often.
skep... Why would I need a book? Does the Vedas make those beliefs any more plausible? How about the Qur'an, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the writings of Norse, Roman, or Greek Gods?
And, if I were God, I wouldn't be a murderous God... So petty that he tortured people who simply didn't believe in him for eternity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68
My point is... As 'dood' stated, NOTHING can convince him otherwise! So, IF he is wrong, he would be blind to it.
Let me highlight this, this was...
Imagine for a moment, that Jesus really was a supernatural being, BUT, not as 'dood' believes he is. Imagine that, being supernatural, he could return in human form... Imagine he did, and PERSONALLY met 'dood' and told him directly that he is way wrong on what his message was, and that salvation isn't through him, but in adherance to the Law of God, as God and Jesus stated*. Would 'dood' believe him, or deny him, since Jesus isn't telling him what he "wants to believe"? Or, at the very least, would 'dood' ask for "PROOF" that he is Jesus?
* Matthew 5:17-21
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Remember, Jesus was a practicing Jew, and he taught and lived by 'The Law' (Torah). BUT, Christians believe that 'The Law' no longer applies, as NO MATTER WHAT, as long as the believe correctly, they win salvation, regardless of whether they live by the law, or break them all... It's the ultimate 'get out of jail free' card, as they can live the most sinful, blasphemous, murderous life possible, but if on their death bead, they truely accept Jesus into their heart, and ask for his forgiveness, all is good and they win the prize.
At least the Muslims MUST live righteously, where as Christians merely should, but that's not really what counts. In fact, most Christians put their 'shoulds' on others, but not themselves. They do a poor job of walking in the footsteps if their prophet.
As Bruce Lee said, "A closed mind cannot think freely."
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Great thread!
This thread shows something about the psyche of rock climbers and the lure of our sport.
How many other sport-oriented web forums would spawn a guess like, "Is it logical to believe in something that cannot be proved? Why do you believe in God?" And get over 4,000 replies.
I don't see that happening on a bowling, golf or baseball-oriented website. Our sport lures in the most creative, open minded, curious and thoughtful amongst the human race.
I have another response to offer: What difference does it make whether I believe (or know for sure) whether a "God" exists?
Since my belief or knowing won't change the external reality my answer is: No. However, my own belief or knowledge may change ME in some way.
Thus, what matters to me is: Should belief or knowledge in existence of God change me or the way I live my life?
My answer is no. If I don't believe in God, I won't suddenly change my behavior and become amoral, anti-social, evil, hateful or perverse.
And if that answer is no, then the question itself becomes irrelevant.
Which leaves me at this point. During a lecture by a Tibetan Buddhist monk someone asked: "What is the purpose of life?" Without hesitation he answered in one sentence:
"To be happy and live in the present."
He felt no reason or need to say more.
I became completely satisfied with his answer and now adopt it as my own.
Thus I need not waste anymore time trying to prove to myself whether God exists even though I remain fascinated with the scientific efforts to understand the origins of the universe and life itself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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It matters (that you believe in the "one true God") because if you do NOT believe, you'll burn in hell.
PAUSE / EDIT
Such is the belief of millions of grandparents, still. (Mine included.) Taught to them by their parents, ad infinitum. And foisted, moreover, upon their grandchildren.
The modern prescription: Break this chain.
What we in America and Europe have to be thankful for is that our countries have been much more successful in recent generations at breaking this chain than the Middle Eastern ones. But with the internet and Wikipedia, there is hope.
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