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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 21, 2015 - 08:02am PT
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Loved dogs....I just knew there was something about him!
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Oct 21, 2015 - 08:15am PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Hey guys, for some reason reading the last page of this thread made me wanna share the musical genius of the song above. It's like the toughest, baddest asses, "country" song ever. It could be a soundtrack for this thread. You're welcome.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:19am PT
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Hitler was very engaging in person
Charles Manson was like that. And so were Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Richard Cheney and other mass murderers.
Erik's not a bad person, at all. He just does some things that many other people disapprove of because they needlessly degrade other climbers' experiences. The fact that he will post responses here is very good. Part of the reason I started foaming up and spewing so vociferously was that he wasn't responding earlier. Then, when he stated his logic and methodology, I was incredulous that an experienced climber would think that way.
I can fault myself for also dumbing down climbing by making my big cams. The difference between big cams and retrobolting is that people can decide to use a big cam, or not, as part of their climbing experience.
But, if my dream is to climb Tis-Sa-Ack, and experience what Royal Robbins claimed was "probably the most craftsman-like bolt ladder in the world", that option has been forever eliminated by Erik. He has admitted to retrobolting the Robbins bolt ladder, presumably to Erik's arbitrary standard of it being easy for a 5'-7" person to clip the new bolts.
Knowing this, if I still want to climb Robbin's ladder, I would have to go up there with my own drill, find the Robbins bolts that Erik broke off, and put in new ones. Then, I would remove the belay bolts that Erik used to create the second, easier bolt ladder. Or, I could leave both bolt ladders, overlapping each other, and each subsequent climber could choose to A) use the original, harder ladder with 1/4" bolts, or B) use Erik's easier ladder of 3/8" belay bolts, or, C) use a little bit of both, or, D) just clip everything in sight.
What a mess.
I have been needlessly robbed of the option of climbing Tis-Sa-Ack in the way I would want to do it.
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Offset
climber
seattle
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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do the hardmen take the old or new bolt ladder to deadbird ledge on zodiac?
[nevermind]. for a few on this thread there seems to be some convergence towards reason. probably nobody will be 100% happy but that's the world, eh. the hyperbolic name calling and dehumanizing of fellow climbers in this thread is toxic.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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I have been needlessly robbed of the option of climbing Tis-Sa-Ack in the way I would want to do it.
Good post; couldn't agree more. Hope Erik is reading this!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 21, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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We operate in an Ironic Universe.
If you've made any modifications what-so-ever to the rock between your belays, you have no base. A future climber could very well have done the pitch with zero modifications. You've reduced the pitch to a contrived and manufactured level of difficulty. Lucky you, as our sport's ethics say the pitch should stay in this state for all time.
Me - I really don't give a sh!t what climbers after you do to the same pitch. It's going to be the same thing to me - exactly - a contrived and manufactured experience. If that's the experience I'm going to have, I'd frankly rather it manufactured by someone with Erik's experience - he has more of it in Yosemite than most alive. That said, manufactured risks are going to be less and less tolerated on good rock in our growing and resource limited sport.
Pure gold - bitching about the adventure and experience difference in a bolt ladder. Good god, that's fuking pitiful. You go dude, you're obviously a fine specimen of pure rock crushing bad-assness.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 21, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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JLP Party of one? Paging JLP Party of one...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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Pure gold - bitching about the adventure and experience difference in a bolt ladder
You are missing the big picture. The point isn't a "ruined bolt ladder." The point is someone modifying existing routes. After I go climb Tis-Sa-Ack, I can report whether or not Erik additionally retrobolted other pitches, such as the famous summit pitch that nails (Good God!) through an undulating roof.
Erik nanooked entire pitches on the Great Slab Route, to make the route go "clean". Did he do that to Tis-Sa-Ack, too? What about the 5.10 off-fist cracks that Robbins found so vile and appalling? Bolted to make them palatable for 5.6 climbers?
A bolt ladder can be a necessary evil that allows an otherwise impossible route of good climbing. How the FA dealt with that necessary evil is an integral part of the route. Nobody climbs a big wall to "get on the bolt ladder". But, if they had to drill a ladder, and were conscientious and tall, like Robbins, the bolts will be widely spaced, and it will be a challenge to top-step against a vertical and windy wall, and not fall over.
You go up on a big wall because it's challenging. If it's not challenging, then why bother? I don't need to have Nanook up there to hold my hand, and kiss my gobies to make them all better. I want to go up there, and experience what real climbers, Royal Robbins and Don Peterson, thought was the best way to get things done.
And I don't want to get all the way up the route to find that the delicious summit apotheosis is a goddamn ladder of belay bolts. Yeah, I could nail past Nanook's belay bolt ladder through the summit overhangs. And I could take the time and effort to remove his unnecessary bolt ladder. And then, later, he could rap down and retrobolt that summit pitch, again.
It would be better if Erik didn't modify existing routes, so that their original challenges would remain for other, capable climbers in the future.
It's supposed to be hard. The hard is what makes it great. If it was easy, everybody would do it.
 A League of Their Own
It's supposed to be easy. The easy is what makes it great. If it was hard, not everybody could do it.
Nanook the Kook
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 21, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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Tom, all I can say is that I hope your TTD list is not accurate.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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Kelly, the K-Man. I still have photos of the time I stayed at Yosemite West with Anna. A photo of your railing is on my website. I miss that place. One night, I left the hatch of my SUV open, with a bag of food right there, and it was still there the next day. Try THAT with your car parked in the Curry parking lot! If the bears don't ransack it, the Feds will tow it to their vehicle prison, and you'll have to bail it out.
The list of Nanook TTD I posted is based on facts, statements Erik has made himself, and some speculation on my part.
Speculating this way may not be fair, but if a girl goes to bed with forty guys, it's likely she'll do numbers 41, and 42, too.
Erik dumbs down various aspects of existing routes, such as bolt ladder spacing, huge bolts instead of rivets, etc. So, it would seem reasonable that other difficult, dangerous and scary aspects of those routes would get the Nanook treatment.
I have invoked the Great Slab Route here only because there is some documentation regarding the Nanooking, and even some people posting above that have described what they have personally seen up there.
The only Nanooking I have personally seen is the dowel ladder on Son of Heart. I have been fortunate to climb obscure routes, and to have gotten up there before Erik and his drill got up there.
- Adding bolts to replace hook moves
SPECULATION, but hooking can be dangerous and scary; hard to tell unless a really accurate topo, pre-Nanook, exists; a bolt drilled right at a tenuous hook move would hide it from later scrutiny; a section of hooks moves with the occasional bolt is typically rendered abstractly, and not accurately, on a topo; added bolts to that kind of pitch might be difficult to decipher.
- Adding bolts to bypass entire piton pitches, so they go "clean"
47 bolts added to the Great Slab Route; bolt ladders bypassing existing piton cracks there; Erik has stated he bolts past piton placements and head placements on "clean big wall routes".
- Adding bolts to bypass wide cracks
SPECULATION, but wide cracks can be difficult and scary. Admittedly, Erik may not have any particular aversion to other people using cams to C1 up wide cracks. This one is perhaps the least likely to be on Nanook's TTD. I am way out in left field with this one, but see the above comment about the girl with the round heels.
- Adding bolts to bypass thin cracks, pin scars, or other difficult clean placements
Great Slab Route; it's hard to imagine that entire piton pitches, scars and all, couldn't take some clean gear. Presumably, Erik wouldn't bolt past easy C1 placements; hence, the conclusion he bolted past C3, C4 or whatever was up there; if he bolted past C1 placements, he is even more heinous and destined for the innermost circle of Hell.
- Adding bolts on a free climb to reduce the runouts
Great Slab Route - 47 bolts, and none on free pitches? Ten Days Later had at least one protection bolt added to a free climbing section; Erik admitted to adding a bolt to the third pitch of the Nose. Is that one a protection bolt, an aid bolt, or an aid bolt where there used to be a mandatory free move? I've never done the Nose, so I have no idea what that section is like. Did someone Nanook the free move from the Great Roof to the base of Pancake Flake? That's a famously scary, unprotected 5.7 face move. The chicken bolt on the back of Texas Flake can't necessarily be blamed on Nanook, but whaddya know? It's a fricken belay bolt. When I did that pitch, I thought the bolt was unnecessary, but it was OK for a trade-route, cluster-fucque like the Nose. The Nanook ladder from Texas to Boot was also not particularly obnoxious, to me, given that the route was the Nose.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
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Ian's experience on Tis-Sa-Ack is exactly what this thread is all about.
The old, early 70's rivet/bolt ladder was 35+ years old in 2007. The original, 1/4" dowels, rivets and bolts were scary and in need of replacement.
How should they have been replaced?
OPTION A
Replace the rivets and dowels with 1/4" stainless buttonheads, with a few hangers here and there. Or, even plain steel Rawls, that would last another 35 years. The new gear would go into the existing, old holes whenever possible. The rivet spacing and location would not be materially changed, if at all. The climber would use cable rivet cinches, or dubloon disks, or similar to provide clip-in points at the hangerless rivets.
OPTION B
Replace the original ladder of widely-spaced rivets entirely, with a string of 3/8" belay bolts, each with a hanger, on a different spacing pattern to make it easy for shorter climbers to clip the ladder. The climber would be able to clip each placement's hanger directly, with no need for rivet cinches, etc.
Please note that Option A requires a 1/4" drill to deepen existing holes by about 1/2", or to drill new holes from scratch for dowels or rivets that break instead of pulling out cleanly.
Option B requires the additional work and energy of drilling many 3/8" holes from scratch, with only a few of the existing holes being reused.
Also note that it can take about an hour to drill a 3/8" x 2.5" belay bolt hole by hand. Using a power drill to repair that rivet ladder would be illegal, and a violation of both the Wilderness Act, and a violation of CFR 36.12.
My vote would have been solidly for the first option (which no longer exists) of using 1/4" gear, rivets and some bolts with hangers, in the original holes.
Does anyone else out there, besides Erik, think that the second option makes more sense, and was the correct way to repair that rivet ladder?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:01pm PT
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There's a lot to discuss in this thread, but as far as bolt ladders go I think some people give first ascensionists too much credit.
I would bet 99% of people on a new route don't like bolt ladders and try to get through them as easily, quickly and cheaply as possible without paying much mind to the "experience" of their bolt ladder. 1/4" are easier to drill than 3/8", rivets are cheaper that bolts with hangers, drilling fewer bolts is cheaper and less time consuming than more bolts, some people are taller than others, etc... The whole point is to get back to the real climbing and usually (probably not always) not intended to be a testament to their courage or style or whatever. Bolt ladders are, after all, kinda lame.
I get that some bolt ladders have gained a reputation that people would like to experience for themselves and I generally agree that people shouldn't change routes, but the whole bolt ladder thing might be a little much.
Just my thoughts...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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FA's especially in the 70's and earlier were thinking of their route and not the hordes, which they never anticipated, to follow. The idea of comfortizing routes for subsequent ascents was a completely foreign concept.
What few bolts I put in on alpine first ascents were 1/4 in. hand drilled bolts. I would have put in smaller ones had they been available.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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Tom, there are a couple misconceptions in your last post:
First, there's no such thing as 1/4" stainless steel split-shaft buttonheads - they are all carbon steel. Stainless is too soft for a split-shaft buttonhead. The only stainless steel 1/4" buttonhead is the "Spike" bolt (basically a straight bolt with a wavy bend in it), but Bryan Law found that it pulls out with nearly no force. More reading: 1/4" split-shaft buttonheads aka "Drive" bolts:
http://www.powers.com/product_03601.php
Second, hand drilling out a 1/4" hole to a 2.25" long 3/8" hole in Yosemite takes more like 10-15 minutes, not an hour. Maybe up to 20-25 minutes if the rock is super hard (or the bolter is tired, sore, out of practice, having trouble with drill bit binding, etc). In grainier Yosemite rock it can take as little as 5-6 minutes.
Here's what the ASCA supplies for rivet replacement - 1/4" x 1.5" buttonheads ("Drive" bolts) with two washers - the double washers allow future replacement with minimal rock damage. Typically placed with a good 1/2" sticking out of the rock:
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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Erik admitted to adding a bolt to the third pitch of the Nose. Is that one a protection bolt, an aid bolt, or an aid bolt where there used to be a mandatory free move? I've never done the Nose, so I have no idea what that section is like.
It's an aid bolt where a 5.10 free move or a C2 aid move was required. An approximate 3" by 3" pod with approximately 5 feet of smooth rock above and below.
I remembered that move as a challenge (obviously I'm no badass climber :^) and thought it was a perfectly placed crux as sort of a gate keeper to the rest of the route. If you had trouble with that move perhaps you shouldn't be going further up on such a popular wall and you may be just likely to bail further up with additional consequences and logistics and in more people's way.
One of my favorite moves on the South Face of Washington Column was the reach from the last bolt on the ladder over the Kor roof to a blind placement, then having to trust a placement I could only feel not see. It was unique and fun. If another bolt was put there it would ruin that experience for everyone that followed. Another fun move was the bottom of the 5th pitch, top stepping off a bolt to reach up for a small cam placement. Again if another bolt was put there it wouldn't require balancing on the top step and having to reach so it would ruin the fun of that placement. Yes I'm no badass by a long shot, and yes, they are relatively safe moves off a bolt, but to me they were FUN and I hate to see people robbed of experiences like those.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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That's right.
On FA you don't want to spend days drilling bolts.
It's brutal hard work especially bolt ladders.
Then if you're going diagonal left and you're right handed it's even more brutal.
Stooopid Americans banned bolt guns because ya can't police yer own selves.
It was never the land managers it was YOU you stooopid climbers that did the banning thru the land managers.
Yes YOU stoopid climbers who make all the rules thru the land managers and shoot yerselves in the foot always.
In the beginning it's always no problems and then the masses come with all their crazy loonie ideas.
Then the police state arrives with them ......
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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Tom- your option A sounds awful. 1/4" SS split shaft bolts are half the strength of zinc plated bolts. looking at 850 pounds of pull out strength vs 1700 of a zinc plated. And that is if they are placed perfectly and there is no excessive hammering done to get the bolt in. You are suggesting installing hardware that is weaker than the FA party used (assuming they used standard steel). Have you ever re-used 1/4" holes? I tried to do that on route at Index long ago and had two bolts come out on the next ascent. I could of killed someone. Really bad idea and something I strongly disagree with.
And if it takes you an hour to drill a 3/8" inch hole you are doing something wrong. I average 15-20 min.
I'd go with Option B.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Bolt ladders are lame. And the FA guys want to get through them quickly and easily. That usually means they are reachy, especially if some tall monster like Hugh Burton or Steve Gerberding is up there, stretched all the way out to minimize the number of holes.
The reason I mention them at all is that they represent the most blatant, and easiest to visualize changes in the middle of a pitch. It's harder to visualize that, "This copperhead cable here blew out, then even a pin stack would't hold there, so I drilled a bunch of holes to compensate for the worn-out rock that was no longer usable."
Usable by whom? Could you pound a tomahawk into the copperhead? How good are your pin-stacking skills? Did you try using Leeper Z-tons stacked with LAs? What about equalizing several bad pieces for each aid move? Was it really necessary to drill holes, to bypass that section?
By contrast, saying that a ladder of rivets was replaced by a ladder of belay bolts and hangers is easier to visualize.
Of course, saying, "I drilled a bolt ladder right next to a good piton crack because I think pitons suck" produces an immediate, visceral reaction in the reader. But, that particular behavior has not been as widespread, yet, as replacing smallish bolts and rivets with huge belay bolts. I would like to hear more about bolt ladders being added to Great Slab Route, to bypass piton cracks.
Is is lame to fixate on the quality of the bolt ladder experience? Yes. Does it really matter if the ladder is all 3/8" hangers? Not really. Is the experience of climbing a ladder of belay bolts significantly different from the same ladder of rivets? Oh, hell yeah. There is a much different feel to looking down, and seeing a line of rivet cinches on rivets you can barely see, compared to seeing a line of 3/8" hangers placed every four feet.
The reason someone is up there in the first place is essentially to be sketched out. Nobody older than about 10 years goes to Disneyland, and gets on the Teacups baby ride. Similarly, nobody should go up on an El Capitan big wall, and find out that it's no longer Space Mountain - it's now that stupid Teacups baby ride.
The real issue isn't the quality of the bolt ladder, it is whether or not someone has the right to go up and dramatically change existing routes. The bolt ladders are invoked because they can readily be repaired to near-original condition rather easily. Retrobolting them with belay anchors is just one form of defacement that has been taking place up there.
If we don't talk about aid ladders being Nanooked today, we will be talking about popular free climbs being Nanooked tomorrow. It's already happening to some free pitches, right now.
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