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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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roehl whined to skipt -- "And please quit calling me names."
What a whinny piss poor little baby.
Grow a sac dude.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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Wbraun -- Another erudite argument from the enlightened spirit. You just keep that good karma coming and I'll see you in the medicine cabinet.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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You're a complete idiot.
I've never ever claimed nor said I was enlightened.
I'll see you in hell .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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I'd say we're all already there, the other place too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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It's sadly ironic that Wes and Paul post quotes from people and claim that to be 'proof' against a higher power. It's a silly premise to base your point on. Think about it.
Keep tryin' though.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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Wbraun- You enjoy hell, sounds like you're already there, I won't be there. Hell is for believers.
Fascinating to see just how intolerant religious people are. All they need is a little power and they'll burn you at the stake or worse. Better believe what they do.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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Wes, you're a very interesting man. Someday we'll climb together, pussy, and I'll show you how to knock down 5.9's in style...maybe even a 5.10 or two. Y'know why, cause I climb with a higher power, dude.
(I am coming to you neck of the woods this summer, Emerald Bay beeatch, and a guide would be nice)
Actually you're in Sacto now, huh? Well, we'll hook up and I'll show you!!! 5.9's!!!! look out!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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You Christians prove yourselves by your actions. "Faith without works is death."
A lot of nastiness on your posts. Too bad, it's a necessary and important discussion.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jan 24, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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Nice one Bluering!
I have faith that there is no god, at least one that sits on a cloud looking like Moses or crowley, beyond that it gets, er, complicated...
I was glad to get post 600 on such an unlikeley thread, though
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Seems to me that the world has more woes than can be blamed on bad religion, or missuses, thereof.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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Never said religion is responsible for all the worlds problems. Part of the problem here is nobody seems to be reading the posts. My only real goal here is to get post 666 and then this will all be over and I can get out of here.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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Have read Hitchens but more importantly Bertrand Russell and CS Lewis and Joseph Campbell and many many others. I think I understand the subject.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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"Wbraun- You enjoy hell, sounds like you're already there, I won't be there. Hell is for believers."
The degree of luxury in Werner's lifestyle over many decades is Hell class. Sleeping in vans and tents, enduring pain al the time. He doesn't seem to notice.
If sent to Hell (perhaps by clerical error) I imagine he'd look around and say "Is dat all U got?. Yur a bunch of Whiners!!"
Back to the feedback loop:
What to say about Jefferson? A great man (and all great men have strengths and flaws) Believed in freedom but had slaves. Questioned the Bible and yet took the time to write it down. What does any of that prove?
Fact is, you could believe or disbelieve words in any book and that would only say so much about a person. We all have different levels of understanding behind the words and concepts we believe in, and we are only in a state of active belief a tiny percentage of the time. When you wake up in the morning, before you pick your head up, you hardly believe anything.
Even if the scriptures of any faith were completely accurate, having a real comprehension of a spiritual reality is as beyond the framework of human understanding as your dog's understanding of the stock market. We're locked in our perspective as humans living in time, confined by space, and processing with brains that are equipped like the first black and white TV.
The quality of a person's heart is what they carry around with them each moment. How they regard each person expresses their state of being. That goes beyond any lip service to any scripture. (like the inquisitors who tortured for Jesus, or radical Muslims stoning women for Allah)
The clarity of a person's connection with that higher power is evidenced to themselves in honest moments by the Peace and Love they live with every day (or lack of it), alone and with company, no matter what belief accompanies it. (it's true that some lie to themselves better than others, but I'm talking about when the BS is stripped away)
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
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Joseph Campbell is the most germaine in this, to my thinking.
CS Lewis. Wasn't he a lapsed Christian who came back to the flock? -as well as being the voice of Treebeard, of course.
did he play hackey sack with Graham Greene?
about 60 to go?
on a more serious note, good points Karl.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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This just seems like ambiguous, nebulous, ephemeral nothingness. If spiritual thought is everything or anything to everybody then how is it anything?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 24, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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Karl, you're weird in a good way, kinda like Werner. You guys connect on a different level. Which is why I know that with faith and knowledge of faith, comes understanding. You two weirdos may be Hinduistic, but you understand things. I know, however, you probably think I don't with all my war-mogering rhetoric and all, but I do. Maybe I'm a work in progress, or maybe you are, bottom line...it's all about loving each other (in a non-homo way) and loving the One.
Love in our language is so distorted as a word. "I love pizza"
On second thought I grieve for our society's future.....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 24, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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Hey Blue-Bro
I've studied all the religions and particularly some Eastern Ones but I've come to see the Spirit behind them without blind belief in the letter of any of them. If I got to church, my heart opens wide even as I take all the words with grains of salt,
And so I believe with Jesus in Judging not.
Even as we fight online tooth and nail, my heart does not looks down on you but rather sees you in the light of Love. That's what I've chosen to feed within myself and I regard my enemies as friends who don't know it yet.
There's no doubt that my vision is limited as well. I'm kind of hesitant to write about things like religion and politics online as it would seem to separate me in an ideological way from folks whom I'd otherwise get along great with. Plus I guide so it's got to be bad for business to be polemical.
Still, life on this planet is in a precarious state. We're all racing against death even during good times, so I feel it's important to work on these issues that really bear on ultimate questions.
at a minimum, learning to dialog with folks who disagree with us is a quality that serves humanity, right or left, believer or not.
PEace
Karl
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jan 24, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
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I question Thomas Jefferson's moral authority to pass enlightened judgement on God and religion....beyond personal opinion and commentary
He held slaves yet wrote against slavery. Jefferson's views on race were appaling by todays standards and he fathered children by his own slaves. He was an avid foxhunter and kept foxhounds and horses especially for persueing the blood sport.
The language in the Declaration of Independance was largely taken from articles of the Iroquois Federation and writings of Thomas Paine.
Yes, he was a patriot and, no, we encounter problems judging our forefathers by todays standards. Few contributed more to the birth of the nation. But evidences of Jefferson's own moral confusion invites doubt about his judgements on God, religion, Christian scripture, etc.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 24, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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Yup, the more we know about anyone, the more suspect their views become.
But the same could be said of St. Paul.
He never met Jesus, was present at the stoning of an important follower of Christ, and set out to persecute the Christians.
Yet it is his interpretation of Christianity that has prevailed (some say due to the spread of the faith to pagans via his ministry while Christianity didn't much catch on around Jerusalem)
and many Christian and all academic scholars doubt that many writings attributed to Paul in the New Testament are even his. (pseudo-epigraphical writings were very common and more accepted in the ancient world)
Kingdom of Heaven is Within
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 24, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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Jefferson was more a child of the Enlightenment than something as peripheral as Iroquois govt. The Enlightenment was by and large a move toward a more secular understanding of the universe and really ultimately put an end to slavery. Prior to this great movement in human history, slavery was an accepted institution in cultures around the world since the beginning of culture. The old testament even encourages the practice for the Israelites. If we condemn Jefferson for slave ownership do we condemn Jehovah for encouraging same?
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