Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
|
I think you can look at most anything in all-or-nothing or black and white terms if you shine all the equivocal stuff and reduce it all to a few key factors. But the gray areas remain.
For instance, most any gay person would say that, in their experience, they were born that way. But how would they ever prove it, and how could they ever refute what Jody is saying, that in fact they were not born that way but are choosing their orientation, even though us heteros don't "choose," we simply follow our instincts. The last part in not nuanced - following instincts. You just go with what feels right. Who questions that?
People's beliefs are also nuanced in many cases. In fact, doctrine-influenced beliefs are not personal beliefs so much as personal choices to accept someone elses beliefs (doctrine) as your own, then saying these are not beliefs but rather the word of God (which is itself a belief). The trouble starts when people present their beliefs as plain and simple fact, when many facts are lacking in this argument/discussion.
The fact of someone's direct experience gets overlooked a lot in these discussions. Anti-gay folk say that gays life experiences count for nothing in this discussion, which makes me wonder what the anti-gay persons direct experience is that led them to their beliefs? Who has had the direct experience of having their sexual identity waver or their marriage eroding by virtue of the gay communities very existence. As if sodomy was somehow contageous. How could this possibly be so? Who has ever experienced this? Isn't it a little like the specious argument that soloing is also contageous.
There's a big difference between a fear and an actual threat.
I mention all of this not because I am an activist. Gay behavior is incomprehensible to me. But there's no indication that gays are going to suddenly vanish, so instead of denying who they are, is it not more constructive to work with rather than against them?
JL
|
|
L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
|
Jody, friend...that is so not a good comment.
And as a matter of fact, we do work with pedophiles. It's recognized by officials that pedophilia is a lifelong illiness, which is why pedophiles must register wherever they live, and are kept track of by watch-groups.
But Jody, pedophiles hurt people--children--which is as different from consenting adult homosexual behavior as you and your wife being intimate is different from rape.
Please don't let your anger post for you...you are a much bigger person than that.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
|
Jody - We GET it. You don't condone homosexuality.
But, just because your attitude isn't "going away any time soon" should I just accept it?
I think the answer is - yes. I can accept you will probably never change your attitude. And if I end up working with you at the Facelift....I can work with you(on picking up trash, that is).
You may think your post didn't equate homosexuality with pedophilia but I can assure you that is how most anyone would interprate the words. Even your second post saying it didn't equate wouldn't change that. That was a very, very ugly post.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
|
Leb
"So, it is already as you are proposing it be. The church has no legal status to marry unless that state grants it."
No Lois, what I'm saying is that "Marriage" as the Religious right are claiming as a sacred union, should belong to Religions to chose who gets married, and the State should Butt out of EVERYONE's Marriage.
The Gov should only deal in Civil Unions (that individual religions can back up with religious marriage)
That's the solution that even conservatives should be able to live with (Small government out of our business) but they don't want to lose any ground so eventually they will just seem like (insert negative stuff here) while they do down on the wrong side of history like when denying interracial marriage
peace
karl
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2008 - 09:15pm PT
|
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2008 - 10:46pm PT
|
I hear ya LEB but how people react in not relevant. That takes time. What matters is what the state does, and what legal rights are available.
I'm making the case that, if you don't allow gay Marriage, then marriage has become an issue where the barrier between church and state has been breached and needs to be fixed.
If gays can marry, then the state isn't using religious criteria for marriage and we can go on as usual.
You guys choose which is preferable
peace
karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 12:10am PT
|
But Lois, the point I"m making is, take the state out of the marriage business and nobody can complain. If the church of eternal equality chooses to marry Gays, it's up to then.
Let the state only offer civil unions as a legal contract and we're all good.
Peace
karl
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 12:32am PT
|
"Equal rights
and justice."
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Yonder
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 12:53am PT
|
Cali is on fire....You have been smitten.(smote?)
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 01:09am PT
|
This is why gay marriage is bad...could you imagine these two homos???
|
|
L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 01:10am PT
|
Jody...No worries. Thanks for explaining.
Cap'n...where've you and your little duckling been? Cali's been burning for a while now...but I think it's more Mom Nature trying to do a bit of 100-year housecleaning...
Speaking of "smitten" though, what the heck has that bastion of MiddleWest Bible Belt Brethren been doing to cause a 100-year flood in Gulfport, Illinois? They didn't just give Gays the Right to Marry did they????
Bluering Edit: Yes!!! ;-)
|
|
Degaine
climber
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 02:37am PT
|
Rockjox,
First, just to clarify, I read most of your posts and understand that you’re okay with the legality of marriage between two people of the same sex.
Why is it so important to you for there to be a distinction between what you consider to be two different forms of homosexuality? Especially with regard to the gay marriage issue?
We do not distinguish between heterosexual practices, and any heterosexual couple can marry.
With regard to a few stats and articles you posted:
1) When I was in high school, due to rising rates of teen pregnancy and std’s among teens, we received a lot of education about safe sex. No one made our heterosexuality and issue, the issue was teens having sex and being safe about it.
Don’t you think the 13-18 year old male category you cited has much less to do with homosexuality and much more to do with an age group of males clearly uneducated about how to have sex safely?
2) I’m not sure why a particular group having a higher incidence rate for a given disease should be justification for people within that group to have the right to marry. AIDS can’t be transmitted if neither partner has it. Perhaps, as I believe is the case with tasax and sickle cell anemia in certain states, people should be tested (both heterosexual and homosexual) before marriage.
3) I just don’t get the need to back and forth regarding the subject of homosexuality’s genetic or environmentally based cause. Who cares? None of my damn business (or yours).
How should that matter when it comes to equal protection under the law?
|
|
Degaine
climber
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 02:38am PT
|
Jody wrote: Dingus, most people that support homosexual "marriage" are the same people that think nothing of trampling on the Second Amendment.
Funny, the same people who support the Second Amendment at all costs are the same people who think nothing of trampling the First, Fourteenth and all the Civil Rights amendments. Also the same people who fervently support the Patriot Act.
Also the same people who have no problem sticking their noses into people’s private affairs while at the same time hypocritically calling for a “smaller, less intrusive government”.
Of course, we’re all hypocrites, or at least to some extent inconsistent. Some of us just more easily admit it than others.
Jody wrote: Look at the female body and the male body...they are made to mate...that is natural. Mating is the purpose...the fact that it is an awesome feeling and experience is secondary. Sure, there are other ways to feel good, but they are not natural when the physiology of the male and female are taken into account. You can't naturally have a family in a homosexual relationship...you can't have biological children of your own...
Where do you stand on adoption for married heterosexual couples that are unable to have children? How about women getting married who’ve had hysterectomies? Who’ve gone through menopause?
I just don’t get the “natural” argument either. Hostess made its fortune on the unnatural. Should would deny Twinkie eaters equal rights simple because it may appear to some that this is an unnatural act?
P.S.
Rockjox wrote:
Hi John. Long time no see...
Jody, I’m 99% sure Rockjox was making a funny. Take away the period and you have “Hi John Long”
RJ, am I warm?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 03:57am PT
|
Roxjox:
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html" target="new"]FOXNEWS.COM - December 11, 2007 / HOME > SCITECH > Scientists Make Fruit Flies Gay, Then Straight Again[/url]
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2008 - 07:37am PT
|
" This is why gay marriage is bad...could you imagine these two homos??? "
Frightening indeed, but at least they can't produce offspring together.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
|
"Pedophiles aren't going away either...should we just "work with" them? "
Um....YES. Repression sure hasn't worked. However, in their case they exhibit behavior that HURTS AND VICTIMIZES SOMEONE ELSE and so your analogy falls apart (as you noted above). Jody, you don't need to accept gay people. You don't need to accept black people or Indians or Mexicans or whomever. You can have your prejudice and be happy with it and that is fine by me. You realize that "accepting" gays doesn't necessarily mean you have to have them over for dinner though, right? You don't need to actually march in a pride parade or anything. You can just let them live their lives as they let you live yours.
Anyway, take the government out of the marriage business already. Make civil unions the benchmark for legalized couplehood and leave "marriages" to social institutions.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
|
Bluering wrote
"This is why gay marriage is bad...could you imagine these two homos??? "
Bluering and MonkeyBoy climbing up the rocks
They don't have big brains but they do wear big socks
First comes Love
then comes climbing
but I can't talk dirty and still keep rhyming
Think of the two women it would protect!
;-)
Karl
|
|
L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
|
When the camp is quite,
and everyone else is asleep
Pagan and Bluering
have a secret they keep.
They pop the cover
on the back of that truck,
they climb in together
and they have a good
bottle of beer.
What were you thinking???
Well, you shouldn't be. It's none of your dang business.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
|
Too Funny L and Locker!
I mean, LOL, L 'n L.!
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jun 30, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
|
Roxjox,
Every behavioral aspect of your post above is reflected in heterosexual society. We have a very public, large, and active sex club here in PDX not five blocks from my house ([url="http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=298645660" target="new"]Angels Sensual Social Club, see their MySpace page here...[/url]). There are heterosexuals who also knowingly infect themselves with STDs and hetersexuals who knowingly transmit STD to those without them or knowledge that the person is infected. Heterosexuals infected with STDs advertise for single, multiple, and group partners all the time. You are being selective or niave, hard to tell which from this thread.
A simple perusal of Craigslist in any city in America should persuade even the most blind among us that there is no shortage of heterosexual analogs to any 'gay' behavior. Your proposition above is ridiculous on the face of it and heterosexual society - particualarly Republican society - is so fraught by ruinous hypocrisy as to merit openly deeming the entire 'family values' theme to be the schlock divisive political rhetoric it is.
And me closeted? Sure if pointing out the obvious, explaining basic genetics, and promoting common sense is 'closeted' then yeah, close the door and count me in. No, I'm just sulking because no one liked my idea of a monosexual god creating the universe with a masturbatory big bang.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!