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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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Jun 27, 2018 - 02:06pm PT
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What the heck.....
Have none of you ever had an out-of-body experience????
Has no one here ever practiced astral projection?
Is there not one among you who has sat in group meditation and had a conversation with a higher spiritual entity? Lost yourself in the euphoria of merging with the All That Is? Felt your being suffused with Blue Light and perfect Love? And been incapable of knowing where your body ended and the world began?
No one? Really?
Because if you'd experienced even one of the above events, you'd have no question about the existence of souls...especially your own.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 27, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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It could well be a sign of no experience at all *to think* (not see) that anything invisible must be accompanied by fire, brimstone, the voice of God, out-of-body experiences, or a direct perception of nonduality. So many things we hold dear are completely invisible, made-up, created, reified, nonmaterial, not physical.
It’s a lack of experience coupled with outright rejection of another’s view that seems particularly stupid and ignorant.
“Yeah, I have no personal experience in what you’re talking about, but it’s wrong and stupid. We should kill it.”
For the most part, people live in the world of their own minds, believing in what seems right to them from their own point of view. I’d suggest that it takes a great deal of discipline to see anything without all of the psychological, social, institutional, parental, educational baggage that one tends to pick up at they go through life. All of that stuff is programming. You name it.
Wanna really see what’s up? De-program yourself.
Werner’s right, . . . and then some.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 27, 2018 - 08:24pm PT
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"Have none of you ever had an out-of-body experience????
Has no one here ever practiced astral projection?
Because if you'd experienced even one of the above events, you'd have no question about the existence of souls...especially your own."
Yes, on a number of occasions, through the Art of Dreaming. The existence of souls as spiritual entities surviving death does not follow, just the breathtaking extent of the mind. One becomes pure intent and will: the triumph of I-consciousness unencumbered by physical restraints.
But some, through faith, take the experience to mean a lot more than that.
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Jun 28, 2018 - 07:34am PT
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I think of this parable from Jorge Luis Borges often. Of all his writing, it is what has stuck...
Can read the Dreamtigers books for free, to boot.
https://thefloatinglibrary.com/2008/07/30/everything-and-nothing-edit/
Excerpt (but read the whole thing, it is short)
There was no one in him; behind his face (which even in the poor paintings of the period is unlike any other) and his words, which were copious, imaginative, and emotional, there was nothing but a little chill, a dream not dreamed by anyone. At first he thought everyone was like him, but the puzzled look on a friend’s face when he remarked on that emptiness told him he was mistaken and convinced him forever that an individual must not differ from his species...
...The story goes that, before or after he died, he found himself before God and he said: “I, who have been so many men in vain, want to be one man: myself.” The voice of God replied from a whirlwind: “Neither am I one self; I dreamed the world as you dreamed your work, my Shakespeare, and among the shapes of my dream are you, who, like me, are many persons—and none.”
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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Jun 28, 2018 - 05:26pm PT
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Yes, on a number of occasions, through the Art of Dreaming. The existence of souls as spiritual entities surviving death does not follow...
Lucid Dreaming and OBEs are not the same thing, John.
In the first, you're awake within your own dream, able to orchestrate movement and events in Dreamland. You are aware you're in a dream.
In an OBE, your spirit leaves your body, can walk around the bed your body sleeps in, float to the ceiling, go to the kitchen and check out what's in the fridge, and return to your sleeping body. There is nothing "dreamlike" about it.
OBEs are generally accompanied by sleep paralysis, too, which is not part of the Lucid Dreaming itinerary.
How about past life memories? Ever have any of those?
Dr. Brian Weiss has done decades worth of work hypnotizing patients who come to him with various illnesses. Once hypnotized, he takes them back into their multiple past lifetimes, finds the inciting incident, and many times cures the patient with that single session. You'd probably find his books quite interesting.
I've remembered many of my past lives (and past deaths, for that matter). Unfortunately, I was never Cleopatra or Joan of Arc in any of them. :-)
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 28, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
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"In an OBE, your spirit leaves your body, can walk around the bed your body sleeps in, float to the ceiling, go to the kitchen and check out what's in the fridge, and return to your sleeping body. There is nothing 'dreamlike' about it"
And that is precisely what my first experience was like. Castaneda's Art of Dreaming is not the same as lucid dreaming. In the former you have intent and will and everything seems more real than normal reality. Not like a dream.
I arose from my bed and walked across the room, feeling the carpet under my feet, putting my hand on a dresser as I passed, then walked through a closed door (like dense fog) and down steps to the kitchen. There was nothing dream-like about it at all. I was able to look back at my body in the bed after I arose.
This was an incredible experience and left a powerful impression on my memory.
In a later adventure I was in a desert, brilliantly lit by the sun, inspecting a cactus having flowers and marveling at the clear and precise spines adorning the plant and the glowing colors, even counting the spines and flowers.
You are in error in your conclusions. And this kind of experience probably accounts for early religious beliefs. A eloquent prophet having had this experience could easily convince followers of an afterlife. But that is simply not proven by such mental states.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 28, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
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A eloquent prophet having had this experience could easily convince followers of an afterlife.
This is such made up horsesh!t coming from your materially infected mind.
The soul has nothing to do with your "ideas" of religion.
The soul has no connection to religion to begin with.
The gross materialists always try to spin something into a religion they know nothing about .....
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 28, 2018 - 07:09pm PT
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Cool and interesting experieces related above on this page.
Did some careful examination of this just today:
Soul is the awareness of being aware, the I, the life force, unconnected to the physcial universe but playing in it, usually via a human body.
The Soul, "I," creates concepts.
Concepts/Ideas are very fast, almost outside of time. Knowing.
Symbols can be attached to concepts to share them, words, letters, images, etc.
Once they can be shared with other souls, reality comes into being through the process of agreement.
From this perspective, life the the Soul preceeds matter and through the above process creates the universe in concert with other souls.
The concepts, are like molecules of the physical universe but they preceed actual molecules.
The Big Bang as conceived by "Gross Materialists" as WB so eloquently puts it, (I am not so harsh.) is that such a great universe as this must have been created by a a terribly huge force. I propose that the opposite is true, that it was begun with faintest of whispers, like a "ripple on still water." The smallest of whisper, then another, and another, rising gradually and exponetially.
I could not give you the math on this but I bet it works even better to explain the expanding universe. A universe that was, in fact, created by life as a harbor for all life. A place where souls could go and wake up, and share with each other.
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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Jun 28, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
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You are in error in your conclusions. And this kind of experience probably accounts for early religious beliefs.
Well, I certainly apologize for thinking Lucid Dreaming and the Art of Dreaming were synonymous (if you say they're not), but my OB experiences were as nonreligious as a dinner at Shake Shack.
And I don't believe you have any idea what my conclusions are...you haven't opened your mind enough to hear them.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 28, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
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This is such made up horsesh!t coming from your materially infected mind.
The soul has nothing to do with your "ideas" of religion.
The soul has no connection to religion to begin with.
The gross materialists always try to spin something into a religion they know nothing about ..... LOL! I agree but how does the sole tie into impulse control?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 28, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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L: "And I don't believe you have any idea what my conclusions are...you haven't opened your mind enough to hear them"
L: "Because if you'd experienced even one of the above events, you'd have no question about the existence of souls...especially your own"
Sounds like a conclusion to me. But I admit this sort of argument is non-productive, like discussing "awareness" on the other thread. Peace.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 30, 2018 - 01:03pm PT
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More on concepts:
Theoretically - if a soul creates the universe through concepts and the exchange of concepts, it should be possible to eventually identify elemental concepts that underpin all language and the actual structure of the universe. A periodic table of concepts if you will. Perhaps the periodic table of elements would be a key to tracing back some of these concepts? Concepts may be related to matter, energy, space and maybe a few for time.
It would be a sort of god language, one that exists just outside the material universe, but by knowing it one understands all things.
The question, "Does 'Soul' exit?" If you assume the answer is yes, what do you do with it?
If the answer is no, well that is pretty funny to think everyone around you is just a squishy biochemical reaction. Not much you can do with that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
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Soul is an individual, subjective construct. It’s anything you want it to be....enjoy! Empirical evidence is an untidy matter that “faith” gets you around.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Jun 30, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
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Ashrogers and Spider Savage, because this, a bit, addresses your last post too (Spider Savage, howdy by the way).
If the soul does exist we need to understand it and nurture it. And as I said at the beginning I unreservedly believe it exists. Happy Saturday all!
And Jim, what empirical evidence do we have that a soul does not exist in every human being? (See ya soon :)
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Ashrogers
Gym climber
Arizona
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Did you mean that "White people" don't have Soul???
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Empirical evidence is an untidy matter that “faith” gets you around.
Empirical evidence is not the only evidence there is. Moreover, you have to exercise a good measure of "faith" to believe in empirical evidence. Plenty of "faith" around this thread to shake a stick at.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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empirical evidence only requires faith when its based on suppositions which aren't addressed in its proof
you can believe 2 plus 2 equals 4 but you don't have to because its quite easily known
very little supposition in that
Now that's funny.
You talk about empirical evidence and then use as an example "2 + 2 = 4" which is not known nor proved empirically.
And there's much less than "very little supposition in that." There is zero supposition in that. LOL
And that's because it's not an empirical fact.
You seem to have not read most/all of this thread. I've had a long discussion with the empiricists here (that I don't care to repeat), but those that followed along know exactly what I mean when I say that not all evidence is empirical.
Edit: I learned on the politard threads to have nothing to do with you, and your "contribution" to this thread shows again how out of your depth, yet how confident, you perpetually are. I won't respond to you again.
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WBraun
climber
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On the absolute platform 2+2 always equals ONE.
The gross materialists have no clue how that can be .....
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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There was nothing dream-like about it at all. I was able to look back at my body in the bed after I arose.
This was an incredible experience and left a powerful impression on my memory.
Well John, I have to admit your description of your experiences utilizing Castaneda's work is quite tantalizing. In fact, I just ordered The Art of Dreaming and am looking forward to delving deeper into his writings.
Thank you for your engaging conversation.
PS. Such discussions might be fruitless...but then again, perhaps not. Depends on who's participating. >^..^<
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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My lady, by following his simple instructions I had mind-blowing success the very first try. I wish for you the same!
J.
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