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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 15, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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Craig said: "No, I cannot accept God to be: "not a thing", or "nothing"
Still no cigar. The thought experiment is: Is it possible for you to imagine - not, Can you accept.
But really this was a trick question all along because I knew you would never go there. What it shows is that you have a fixation about the way God HAS to be, to the extent that you won't even allow yourself to IMAGINE He might be otherwise. So like I was saying elsewhere, this discussion is merely masquerading as a conversation about God, when what is most being exposed are patterns of mental fixations, the subjects being interchangable - be they Republicans, God, matter, martians, yada yada.
Interesting inquiry.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 15, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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We find ourselves alive in this strange existence confronted with love and hate, beauty and horror, sorrow and happiness, and always near to us the anxiety of anticipation and the dread of our own inevitable annihilation.
As well, we find ourselves compelled by curiosity as to what we are, how we got here and what our lives mean, if anything.
We are overwhelmed by the sublime nature of the “mysterium tremendum et fascinans” and so demand, through a host of anthropomorphic deities, a reconciliation to our existential dilemma.
The very structure of our minds both forms and reflects our understanding and curiosity with regard to the natural world.
Reason is a product of the construction of our minds; our minds like our senses are the products of natural forces and an evolution that favors us as the survivors of a long struggle for viability. How is it that evolution would favor sensory perception that deceives us? Survival itself dictates the accuracy of our senses! Can’t we say the same for reason?
Reason, not unlike our sensory perception, is a natural mechanism that favors our success as inhabitants of this world. Why would we abandon it except as a path to reconcile ourselves to what we think we simply cannot abide?
And more to the point, why would a god give us a “reason” that so favors our success and yet so often stands vehemently against the faith many say he demands?
Nobody can, and nobody wants to, argue against a god that can be anything; certainly all possibilities are possible. What god might be or when and how god might function beyond being is a fascinating question but perhaps that fascination may elicit too easily the abandonment of reason for the pleasure, fascination and reconciliation allowed by faith.
Unfortunately the sleep of reason too often produces monsters.
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ruppell
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 04:37am PT
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god is a thing
stocks are a thing
god is a stock
the devil is the details
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 09:31am PT
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sounds good, paul--if you wrote that yourself, i want to be your agent.
go-B: i never read bible quotes. it would work better if you pretended you wrote that yourself. kinda like slipping a mickey.
largo: someone told me you attended claremont school of theology. true? your point of view sounds a lot like professor griffin's process theology.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Try my thought experiment
If our culture was completley devoid of any thought about God, or religion
No one discovered it yet.
What modern day experience, or circumstances would make someone discover God, (or for a really long shot, Jesus)
People regularly experience synchronicities, unexplainable by science, that point to the interconnectedness of things and suggest an underlying intelligence in our world.
People regularly experience expanded states of consciousness that provide direct insight that a higher Being exists and is a part of us and our world. Often these states are triggered when our mentally created structure of the world is suspended by climbing fatigue, an accident or trauma, or meditative practice.
An awareness of a divine nature beyond ourselves is built into each of us. Not having religion would probably result in the rise of new and more clear religions as the old ones with their ancient cultural bias more appropriate to another time wouldn't hold sway. I thought religion was totally ridiculous playtime stories until I directly experienced something far beyond the fairy tales within myself. We tell fairy tales to our kids but that doesn't mean there's not some true reality that we don't know how to explain to them yet
Peace
Karl
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FredC
Boulder climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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I'm glad that Paul wrote about defining god. I think that if all the believers would just develop a consensus about what we are talking about it would help the discussion. It would be fun to watch that process anyway. The concept of god seems to be on a sliding scale from some vague kind of energy thing at one end to a very grumpy large sort of gaseous man floating up there somewhere on the other.
Quite a few "wise" people have suggested that the best way to actually answer the god question is to look really hard directly at the one who is asking it. Who is it that wants to know? I think you might have to do this for a long time. I hear caves might help too.
I think a topic like this burns so brightly here especially is because as outdoor people we are more exposed to the sharpness of our experiences of nature. It's like being a kid and looking at the night sky and thinking "holy cow, how big is this deal?". Then your mind sort of hits the wall for a moment.
Some threads really do feel like what might happen around a campfire.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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Fact is Dr. F. you don't know about what you haven't yourself experienced. Why not leave it at that if you want to be scientific? Your assumptions are rubbish to one who knows, just as a toddlers imagination of what orgasm might be would be off the mark.
As for Jesus, you don't have to know that name (a greek name that Yeshua of Nazereth wasn't even called during his life) to be transformed and touched by the Spirit of the "Son" of God. (the aspect of the divine that offers Grace and awakening) It's generally true that when people have spiritual experiences, no voice says, "this is Jesus working on ya" it's just that people pray to Jesus and get an answer and either feel or assume it's Jesus at work. God answers to any name called with the sincere intent just as a parent would answer a baby crying "do do, help!"
It's natural to resent and resist religion for many reason.. corruption, abuse and hypocrisy on one side, and our own resistance to fearing judgement and control on the other. It's sad because the real truth judges not but springs from pure love.
Of course, we are wounded and even fear pure love. That's one thing to look within and purge any fear of love and exposure from your system. Once you are open to love and your own self, spirituality comes naturally and without doubt
Peace
karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 15, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Tony Bird. Holy cow, Tony! You get the award for being able to pick an arrowhead out of a haystack.
Tony wrote: "largo: someone told me you attended claremont school of theology. true? your point of view sounds a lot like professor griffin's process theology."
My adviser at Claremont was John Cobb, who I did all my grad Whitehead/ Process studies under (Oral exams on Process and Reality from Prof. Cobb were no cake walk), and many of the hardcore philosophy classes I took were from David Ray Griffin - a sharp dood, but he went south with all that 9/11 conspiracy jibberish.
It is true that much of what I write here can be framed in "Process" language, but the better part of it all came out of practicing Za Zen for many years.
I usually leave off mentioning sources or quoting this guy or that group, not wanting to frame my ramblings as some specie of faux scholarship, or to get all uppity and erudite in a campfire conversation.
But yeah, I did the book work and if you want to approach this from a standard, western philosophical or theological vector, I can surely go there with you.
BTW, the issue of matter and spirit is ancient, and got kindled in this last round, circa 1777, by a Brit named Joseph Priestley.
But I better stop here. Once again, great catch there, Tony.
JL
Postscript: Baba wrote: "Fact is Dr. F. you don't know about what you haven't yourself experienced."
I don't want to pile onto Craig, who is a friend who I grew up with, but another approach to this might be - instead of attacking or trying to catagorize the experiences that other people have had, as mentioned above by Baba, why not ask some questions? And I don't mean "set-ups," which are phrased as questions but for which you already have the "right" answer in your head. If there's something you don't know, why not ask, instead of writing the whole thing off as unknowable? Why bet against yourself like that?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 15, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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But my bet is no one would discover God, or Jesus, they would live good lives without any Religion
I don't have any need for religion and I find I dislike most of them, but I experience God. So I think your theory is pretty much already shot down.
On another note, admitting that the universe is energy is admitting that it is just information. If the universe is just information, then it is in a sense virtual. If everything is energy\information, then virtual realities that we create are potentially the same as "real" reality. Once we create AI we will create virtual universes within our own that have any sort of laws or gods that we want them to have and they may evolve in ways we could never predict. To me this is part of how I understand that God is greater than any science. The laws of this virtual\energy\information universe we inhabit are mutable.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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But my bet is no one would discover God, or Jesus, they would live good lives without any Religion
This is probably true, but says little about God/Spirit, which exists and influences us tremendously whether we think about it or not. Religions are admittedly packed with culture and superstitions that pass for knowledge about God so it's debatable how much they add or detract from our relationship with Spirit.
We might compare organized religions to the state of science in the dark ages and say that people would have lived good lives without knowing the state of science in the year 1000. That would say nothing about the existence of natural laws and their potential benefits.
Peace
Karl
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go-B
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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Isaiah 55:9, For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 15, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
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If I may be so brash as to ask a question of you...
What is religion, is it not man working his way up to God i.e, through a good life, keeping certain rules etc.?
Dr.F, to answer your question, perhaps He would come down and introduce Himself...how novel!
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jstan
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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On the existence of (a) god.
It is most important that non-believers think clearly. There is no real world evidence either for or
against the existence of a god, any god. So we cannot say there is no god. But since there is no
evidence a god has ever affected anything in the real world, where both believers and non-believers
live,
the question whether any gods exist is patently unimportant. There is nothing practical to be gained
from having an answer.
There is a reason believers so frequently assert the "existence" of god(s). By raising that completely
moot point, we become occupied with non-sense. Be wary anytime you let an opponent frame the
discussion.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 15, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Tony Bird. Holy cow, Tony! You get the award for being able to pick an arrowhead out of a haystack.
Tony wrote: "largo: someone told me you attended claremont school of theology. true? your point of view sounds a lot like professor griffin's process theology."
My adviser at Claremont was John Cobb, who I did all my grad Whitehead/ Process studies under (Oral exams on Process and Reality from Prof. Cobb were no cake walk), and many of the hardcore philosophy classes I took were from David Ray Griffin - a sharp dood, but he went south with all that 9/11 conspiracy jibberish.
It is true that much of what I write here can be framed in "Process" language, but the better part of it all came out of practicing Za Zen for many years.
I usually leave off mentioning sources or quoting this guy or that group, not wanting to frame my ramblings as some specie of faux scholarship, or to get all uppity and erudite in a campfire conversation.
But yeah, I did the book work and if you want to approach this from a standard, western philosophical or theological vector, I can surely go there with you.
BTW, the issue of matter and spirit is ancient, and got kindled in this last round, circa 1777, by a Brit named Joseph Priestley.
But I better stop here. Once again, great catch there, Tony.
JL
Postscript: Baba wrote: "Fact is Dr. F. you don't know about what you haven't yourself experienced."
I don't want to pile onto Craig, who is a friend who I grew up with, but another approach to this might be - instead of attacking or trying to catagorize the experiences that other people have had, as mentioned above by Baba, why not ask some questions? And I don't mean "set-ups," which are phrased as questions but for which you already have the "right" answer in your head. If there's something you don't know, why not ask, instead of writing the whole thing off as unknowable? Why bet against yourself like that?
JL,
My good friend and my one time Methodist pastor John F., below in the picture also went to Claremont School of Theology, and had David Ray Griffin for a few classes. Brilliant man David Ray Griffin.
Griffin has an absolute sharp mind and ability for reason and logic. You should read some of his books on 9-11, and don't poo-poo them. Truth will set you free. Hard to stomach I know, but evil abounds in this World and some see through it crystal clear.
God's peace.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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the truth to tell, i'm probably a bit south of david ray, but i won't worry this thread with that.
i discovered recently that i had subscribed to a process theology, that of pierre teilhard de chardin, for quite a number of years without knowing it fell into that category. as i said, i think that science just broadens one's perspective of these things. the fact that teilhard has been so roundly ignored in the debate of belief and evolution indicates, i think, that the winning of argument, as embodied in some of the jousting on this thread, is more important to a lot of people than the seeking of truth.
i got a good definition of philosophy from my education, and i don't think it goes over anyone's head: philosophy is a discussion among friends about the way things are. discussion maintains friendship. when it becomes argument, you become adversaries. and maybe you stop getting anywhere.
for teihard, there was no conflict between his lifelong faith as a jesuit priest and his appreciation of evolution as a professional paleontologist. his scheme of things involved stages of creation: cosmogenesis, biogenesis, noogenesis or the rise of thought, and christogenesis, the injection of a divine element into humanity. he introduced two terms which have had widespread use: the noosphere, representing all the thoughts that go on in the world, and point omega, his conjecture that all is headed for a divine consciousness.
quite a trip, really, but i found it wearing thin in terms of my own life and milieu. as e.e. cummings put it, "there's a hell of a good universe next door--let's go!"
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pa
climber
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May 16, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Dr.F,
you are right..."God" is hard to Google.
Must have something to do with "Free Will" and "Choices"...or some such static.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 16, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Dr.F- "Maybe he should..."
"He" already has...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 16, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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You can reframe it, too. It's not an issue of denial. It's not an issue of honesty. Not for many.
Indulgence. Nobody denies the power of the indulgence. But on many fronts, the indulgence interfers with better practices in the practice of living.
cf: (a) the softly spoken magic spells (b) opium
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 16, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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I am reluctant to respond...but I am competitive and see what others have said...what I put forth in support of God is the Bible...what is the Bible...just a book..I think not...lets delve into that some more....
Since it is the written portion of what God and Jesus is all about it is a very important document...the only document left to us through out time. If you disagree....reference your point as I:
The bible contains 66 books, written by 40 authors, covering a period of approximately 1600 years. Kinda long for those that are conspiracy theorists.
The Old was written mostly in Hebrew ( a few short passages in Aramaic). About 100 years or more before the Christian Era the entire old testament was translated into the Greek language.
The word Bible comes from the Greek word biblos.
The word testament means "covenant" or agreement. The Old Testament is the covenant God made with man about the salvation before Christ came. The New Testament is the agreement God made with man about his salvation after Christ came.
In the old testament we find the covenant of law. In the new testament we find the covenant of grace which came through Jesus Christ.
The Old commences what the New completes
The Old gathers around Sinai
The New around Calvary'
The Old is associated with Moses
The New with Christ
The authors were kings and princes, poets and philosophers, prophets and statesmen. Some were learned in all the arts of the times and others were unschooled fishermen. Other books soon are out of date but this Book spans the centuries.
Most books are provincial and only interest the people whose language it was written, but not this book. No one ever stops to think it was written in what are now dead languages.
Believing takes faith....I put to those that argue..put forth another document that supports your evidence of another what ever...I have only began to scratch the surface. Why do I believe...I have seen the work He has done....Yes because I don't believe in a coincidence, Karma, or Luck...doctors believe in the unexplained, and yes prayer does work. That is all I am out........
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 17, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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Acid, etc. (for the most part) wears off. Religion is a mind-altering drug where the users have an infusion pump permanently attached--and some of them are hitting the button a little too often.
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