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healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 10, 2013 - 12:50am PT

Werner, dude, whatever's in that bottle, you need to consider easing up on it.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber

Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Jan 10, 2013 - 01:15am PT

...they do not know and understand the theories of evolution...

They don't even understand the concept of a "theory."

You can't debate someone when they don't even have a clue about that which you are debating.

Crazy is a form of self-defense.

There is actually a book out there somewhere that recommends a "crazy" defense in dangerous situations. By crazy they mean that you learn deficate on demand, then reach into your pants, pull our your fresh, steaming pile of dung, and start playing with it (or start tossing it around). They say this tactic is proven to defuse any situation and it gets people to leave you alone.

Anyway.... I agree with you healyje

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Jan 10, 2013 - 02:02am PT

tony bird,
you need an explanation of everything right away, and when you don't get the explanation, you suspect something's amiss...

...lots of atmospheric phenomena we're just learning about, especially optical phenomena, seeing conditions, and the like... you see something up in the sky and you're brain says, "gee, that sure is odd" and it is, but your perception turns it into something you know about, and doesn't stop to think about it as something you don't know about...

...I don't think that photographic or video evidence would be all fake, that fact that much of it has been shown to be "fake" certainly suggests that one has to be careful. But we're not talking about the unusual occurrence that a single person in a single spot at the right time just happened to have a camera. We're talking about this stuff being available by a huge population of people... if this "phenomena" were at all common, you'd see this stuff popping up everywhere.

It is not.

You have reduced this down to "miracle status" which is to say, only a few people have subjective reports which are not reproducible. Who do we believe? or should we believe at all?

Tuck the little phenomena away, let them accumulate and perhaps someday we'll be able to put the puzzle together and get a satisfactory answer. There certainly aren't enough pieces of the puzzle out on the table to get an idea of what the picture is. Until then, it's fun to speculate, but it is probably a waste of time to get too involved in it also.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

Jan 10, 2013 - 09:06pm PT

In the earliest days of the world wide web, around 1998 or so, there were only some hobbyist websites and very little actual content out there. Being a geek I decided I needed my own website, and as a kind of geek-experiment I decided to put the most radical info I could on it, which was about the FBI's counterintelligence programs against subversive groups in the 1960s. The programs have been thoroughly documented, and although not ever the subject of polite conversation, it was all very factual and not a conspiracy theory at all.

Over the next 15 years though, these websites became magnets for people with paranoid schizophrenia, many of whom believe they are being persecuted by the CIA or some other government agency. I have received scores of emails from certifiable conspiracy theorists over the years, and I don't like them at all. They are seriously scary people and I've been threatened when I told them I wasnt interested. Then I became part of the conspiracy against them. One person decided I was working for the CIA because I did one case with former AG Ramsey Clark, and the guy wrote me threats every single day for months.

These people generally believe they are under surveillance all the time, even though there is nothing remotely interesting about their lives to warrant it. They have organization of 'gang stalking' victims - they believe the FBI has assigned a team of agents to follow them around. One person thought that objects in her home were being moved to new locations when she was out. As a lawyer I get people like this calling me all the time and they sound like people with real legal problems for the first 5 minutes.

To make a long story short I HATE conspiracy theorists and have no patience for them at all.

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Jan 10, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

To make a long story short I HATE conspiracy theorists and have no patience for them at all.

Paul, is there a psychological profile, a make up if you will, that those people have?

what do you think, are they born, parental socialized

rural, urban, income level, education,race, male, etc?

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jan 10, 2013 - 09:57pm PT

Hey, Tony B. Wake up!

Did you go climbing?

actually, i prefer to ski as much as possible this time of year. freezing my fingertips at NJC a couple of weeks ago confirms this wisdom.

but i was up to other hijinx today, and if you don't mind a change of subject, i'll give you guys something a little different to laugh at me for.

my wife and i were fortunate to pull a freebie this morning and attend a rehearsal of the l.a. philharmonic. we were told they would rehearse gustav holst's "the planets", and we figured that would be all they would do. we got seats in the center balcony at disney hall. everything was happily informal, with the musicians showing up in sweatsuits and jazzercise outfits, and we settled in to listen to one of mariko's favorite pieces of music--she especially likes the movement devoted to jupiter.

the orchestra seemed a bit thin for this dazzling piece, and their first number, which i surmised to be a rather long and nondescript "mercury", left us hungering for more exciting planets. then a tall guy with very long hair strode onto the stage--kinda looked like paganini--and proceeded to play the violin. hmmm, i thought. didn't know holst featured a violin on one the planets. maybe the violin is supposed to represent the sun, shedding light on everything else.

this fellow was technically amazing, but i still wasn't recognizing any planets. they proceeded through three more unfamiliar planets, and then there was polite applause from us freebs up in the balcony, and all the musicians walked off the stage. our friend who got us in to the rehearsal, a disney hall tour guide, said they were probably taking a break. mariko hadn't heard her beloved "jupiter" yet, so we figured there were several planets to go.

then we get ahold of a shard of a program. we had just listened to eight russian folk songs arranged for orchestra and then the prokofiev violin concerto, performed by a world class artist, leonidas kavakos, on a 1724 strad.

"the planets" came after the break, the orchestra was twice as big, and it was wonderful. i'm trying to enjoy the concerto in retrospect, but it isn't easy.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

Jan 10, 2013 - 09:57pm PT

Norton I think people with mental illness are attracted to these things, not the other way around. I guess if the CIA is mind controlling you with electromagnetic waves, to some people, this explains everything. One of their DSM-IV axes has gone exponential. You'd have to ask a professional why. The people I'm taking about, I imagine them stockpiling weapons and liable to shoot someone over a totally insane delusion.

Although I dont like to talk about real clients, I had one who was institutionalized almost his whole life, and became interested in the occult. People convinced him he had special magical powers, and this can be a comforting explanation to someone with a severe psychosis. Ive been suspicious of wicca and the occult ever since. Im sure my client wasnt the only mentally ill person to get caught up in it.

For the people obsessed with things like 9/11 was an inside job, it may seem harmless but at a certain point if you're not living in reality you might just do crazy things. That's the definition of psychosis, that you cant distinguish fantasy from reality. The first symptom is that they cling to irrational beliefs.

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jan 11, 2013 - 09:06am PT

i can only speak for myself, don paul, but i assure you that i don't rely solely on websites for information. i have a couple shelves of books at home, about 30 books in all, which deal with these difficult subjects. i don't rely on one book--i try to get related books and compare how they approach different controversies. often i will read a book from the "other side". books are better than websites, youtube links, newspapers, magazines, radio and television, although these other sources have their place. a lot more thought and care goes into a book. being a former newspaper reporter, i also seek out key people and try to meet them and question them personally. this is relatively easy to do if you live in los angeles and pay attention to who comes to town.

you're raising the "mental illness" card here. let me tell you a little story about that, which others on supertopo might remember, because i got into a tangle with our great largo on the subject of 9/11 truth here about three years ago.

as it happens, largo attended the claremont graduate school of theology. i don't think he was ambitious to become a protestant pastor, which is the thrust of their program, but rather was pursuing an abiding interest in academic philosophy. CST is known for its center for process studies, founded by john cobb and david ray griffin. it deals with the "process" philosophy of alfred north whitehead, which kinda goes over my head, although in the (haha) process of our discussions, i found i was quite familiar with another process philosopher, pierre teilhard de chardin, who coincidentally has come up on this very thread.

the discussion with largo took place on the "why do so many people believe in god (serious question)" thread. largo's approach to that seemed to resemble what i knew about griffin from another area, and i mentioned that, and eventually the predictable 9/11 sword fight took place. largo suggested then that i might be mentally ill, but he doesn't do so any more.

griffin's book, the new pearl harbor, published in 2004, is one of the books in my special collection. it was the seminal book of the 9/11 truth movement, a very careful review and vetting of evidence and arguments at the time. he has since written several other books on the subject, including one entitled debunking the debunking. his wife has remarked, "you used to write books that put people to sleep. now you write books that keep them awake."

largo conceded that griffin was a respectable and challenging professor, but "he went south" on the 9/11 issue. largo's personal advisor at CST was cobb, who hadn't gone south ... yet. about a year after our little fur-fly, griffin finally persuaded cobb to join him on the dais at local 9/11 truth presentations, where cobb will admit to "being a truther" and let griffin do most of the talking. cobb came reluctantly. the truth party isn't a love party.

largo and i seem to have an unspoken truce. i stay away from the dr. F threads and he hasn't since joined in a tin hat stoning. but, if you're interested in psychoanalyzing the mentally ill, you might begin with dr. F, who told me personally, and then admitted on supertopo, that he's what we call a LIHOP in the 9/11 truth movement. that stands for "let it happen on purpose". there are LIHOPs and MIHOPs, the latter believing that they--whoever "they" made be--"made it happen on purpose". it doesn't take much to go from one to the other.

dirtbag

climber

Jan 11, 2013 - 10:26am PT

mmmm...IHOP...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 11, 2013 - 10:41am PT

Griffin has no 'special' qualifications which sets him apart as any form of expert in policing, fire safety, aviation, engineering, construction, facilities management, communications, politics, intelligence, military, or anything else germane to the events. As Largo said, 'he went south' and in this regard, is just another truther attempting to make fantasy real.

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jan 11, 2013 - 12:07pm PT

and what special qualifications do you have, healyje, other than the extraordinary ability to throw information out before taking a close look at it?

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 11, 2013 - 12:16pm PT

I have architecture, government, military, intelligence, construction, facilities, GIS, and communications experience and access to my father and brothers who now have about a hundred years in military jets and commercial airliners between them - more than enough to call bullshit on all the 911 conspiracies.

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jan 11, 2013 - 12:54pm PT

my, my. dad and brothers. i can't argue with family, healyje, but i notice all you do is argue qualifications. you never argue facts. i think largo learned to do better than that from professors cobb and griffin.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Jan 11, 2013 - 01:32pm PT

Until then, it's fun to speculate, but it is probably a waste of time to get too involved in it also.

Indeed, and not just fun but I would argue important too. Tony doesn't strike me as a nutcase. And I've known plenty of real nutcases.

I sure don't personally agree with most of the grander conspiracy scenarios but in a way I'm glad somebody is taking a skewed look at things in ways my brain just can't.

I'll look at anything. I can appreciate all of the "conspiracy" data on 9/11 and chemtrail stuff. It's interesting to me how other people think. I can see some clear mental illness in some of those people rabidly supporting those ideas but not all of them. I suspect a lot of the times there's a grain or two of truth in those 'wacky' theories. I can't conceive of organized religion. I rank it with Santa. But I've learned a lot by studying religions too.

I would suspect some kind of mental dysfunction (or shall we say... diminished function) lies on both ends of the spectrum.

On one side there are people who are unable to think for themselves and cling forever to "experts" testimony and endless published stats without recognizing their are human motivations behind all of that 'hard science'.

On the other side there are those who can't accept facts even when they've proven it to themselves. And there certainly are clinically paranoid/psychotic people too.

Each extreme is easily recognized as resolute certainty in one's beliefs. Something we're all guilty of from time to time. As humans we find some solace in the 'certain' no matter how unrealistic that may be.

Believe whatever you want, but true ignorance comes from not listening or being open to new ideas. At the very least we owe each other respect.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 11, 2013 - 02:25pm PT

As some of you are Al Bartlett fans, you might enjoy this denver post commentary:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/opinion/2013/01/08/dust-bowl-global-warming-sustainability/31901/

The physicist Freeman Dyson is said to have observed that, “Sanity is the ability to live within the laws of nature.” Tragically, insanity abounds, especially among the “well educated” leaders of Colorado.

Really, it's well educated leaders everywhere.