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jstan
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
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Like going rock climbing?
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 12, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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Matthew 12:33, “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 13, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 13, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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Not sure what Tom's photo was meant to convey other than sadness for some very intelligent creatures. God certainly had nothing to do with this but there is good evidence that many dolphin and whale beachings occur just after U.S. Navy exercises which blast huge volumes of noise under water. Some beached whales have had blood coming out their ear holes after these exercises.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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But still people try to save them...
2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Hebrews 9:27, And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Just because everybody is going over a cliff doesn't mean you have to follow!
God only has children, you have to come to Him yourself!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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Just because everybody is going over a cliff doesn't mean you have to follow!
Now you understand my viewpoint on your religion!
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:12am PT
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Psalm 115:1, Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory,
for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!
2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
16 The heavens are the Lord's heavens,
but the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the Lord
from this time forth and forevermore.
Praise the Lord!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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Again... Life after death is like life before birth.
If you are missing the point in that, let me rephrase it in the form of a question...
WHY do you think life after death is going to be different than life before birth? Do you believe God made your soul and put it into your infant body? If so, then it is NOT eternal, as it has a beginning. Also note that if you do believe God made your soul, and it was in your infant body (or even en utero), why is it that you have zero memory of anything prior to you developing language? If you had died before 2 years old, what would the memories and essense of your soul, or even YOU, be? Seriously, as I'm sure many of you believe that you will take all of your memories into the afterlife with you, so what if you have none, and can't even communicate with others?
Point... There is no soul, only your consciousness... And when you die, so will your consciousness die, no matter how much you WANT to believe otherwise. As Werner said (and I finally agree with him), "we humans are obsessed with death", and it's that desire to quell that uncomfortable obsession with the comforting delusion that we really won't die.
Now, if you disagree... Then PLEASE articulate WHY you believe differently? And please be specific: "I believe you are wrong because ... ". If your beliefe is REASONABLE then you should have no problem "reasonably" articulating it... If you cannot, then perhaps your belief is not as "reasonable" as you'd like to think.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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Excellent, IMO.
Some can articulate. Some cannot. But some will refuse to articulate because that gets too close to justifying a belief. By definition a belief cannot be justified on any grounds other than "That's the way I prefer to live." Which is cool.
Just as long as you do not attempt to force others to hold your beliefs.
Pick up any day's newspaper to see that believers fail miserably on this.
Beliefs are aggressive.
Many very good people, who are not by nature aggressive, hold aggressive beliefs.
Have you ever wondered why?
If it were me, I would ask myself why.
Are you who you think you are?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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Religions don't own the word belief. Belief is ANY mental holding (or mental acceptance). I wish people would break the bad habit of expressing themselves (through talking, writing) AS IF belief referred only to the mental holdings of religious people. It plays right into their hands. Reframe it.
Call it what it is: religious belief or supernaturalist belief or batshit belief.
Don't you have lots of "belief" concerning rock climbing, etc.? If so, you're not an unbeliever. Christians and Muslims are unbelievers (nonbelievers) in regard to Aphrodite, many in regard to the Big Bang and evolution. Letting them have this word is shooting "efforts to evolve, to progress" in the foot.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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There is no soul, only your consciousness.
If one says there is no soul then there would be no consciousness.
The soul is felt all over the body as consciousness.
Consciousness is the symptom of the soul and the seat of the soul is within the heart.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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HR... Perhaps you missed it...
Everything I said in my previous post was in reference to the belief that one has a soul that will live on after one dies...
I see no attempt to even articulate what I asked... Did you even understand what I was asking? Maybe you need to reread my reply:
Again... Life after death is like life before birth.
If you are missing the point in that, let me rephrase it in the form of a question...
WHY do you think life after death is going to be different than life before birth? Do you believe God made your soul and put it into your infant body? If so, then it is NOT eternal, as it has a beginning. Also note that if you do believe God made your soul, and it was in your infant body (or even en utero), why is it that you have zero memory of anything prior to you developing language? If you had died before 2 years old, what would the memories and essense of your soul, or even YOU, be? Seriously, as I'm sure many of you believe that you will take all of your memories into the afterlife with you, so what if you have none, and can't even communicate with others?
Point... There is no soul, only your consciousness... And when you die, so will your consciousness die, no matter how much you WANT to believe otherwise. As Werner said (and I finally agree with him), "we humans are obsessed with death", and it's that desire to quell that uncomfortable obsession with the comforting delusion that we really won't die.
Now, if you disagree... Then PLEASE articulate WHY you believe differently? And please be specific: "I believe you are wrong because ... ". If your beliefe is REASONABLE then you should have no problem "reasonably" articulating it... If you cannot, then perhaps your belief is not as "reasonable" as you'd like to think.
So, perhaps you think you can articulate WHY you believe that you have a soul, and that it will live on for eternity, either punished or rewarded?
Instead you trot out Pascal's Wager... Thing is, you lose on that too, as of all the world's religions, past and present, you chose one... So what makes you think it's the "right one"? See, by your logic, you could end up being judged only to find that you chose the wrong deity/belief. Others who worship the same root God as you are equally confident that you are wrong (Jews, Muslims), and that's just ones who believe in the same God as you... There are others who do not. So, just judging by the odds... Chances are you are "betting your life" on the wrong one, especially seeing as how you can't even articulate why you believe as you do, which suggests that your belief isn't even distinct but is instead nebulous.
HFCS... My bad for not being precise with my words, as in the context of this thread, I think many would understand what I mean by "belief"... And in ther context of my previous thread, it means "the active confidence that one has a soul that will live for eternity".
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Consciousness is the symptom of the soul and the seat of the soul is within the heart.
That's interesting, Werner... So, when one gets a heart transplant, they get that person's sould as well? What happens to their previous soul?
Please... Tell me more.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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When you change to a new room are you the room or the person in it .....
When you total your vehicle (car) and get a new one are you the car or the driver .....
These are all crude examples ..
The gross materialists falsely identify themselves thinking they are the body.
When you do an engine transplant in your vehicle does the driver (You) change?
Or are you the engine ?..... :-)
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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I agree with what you are saying, NOW, Werner... But that's not what you said.
In the context that your are speaking, now, heart and soul are one and the same... Thus the soul cannot reside in the heart, which IS what you said. Speaking like that is a carry over from when people thought that the "spirit" ("breath") resided in the heart, and gave additinal definitions to the word "heart". Note that literally, back in the day, "spirit" and "soul" were NOT the same.
Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama, has some great stuff to say about this in one of his recent books, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality, in which he has an entire chapter on this very subject... And more importantly, the subjectivity of it, due mainly to the limitations we have in trying to describe our own consiousness due to different definitions of words like: heart, mind, spirit, etc... Due to culture and language, which in influenced by culture.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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HR... Image for a moment, that you are a future space traveller...
You come upon a world, far from Earth, who's inhabitants believe that their deity created their world JUST FOR THEM... As a proving ground of sorts for them to show themselves worthy of living for eternity with their deity, who they believe created them in his own image. They too call him God, and even capitalize pronouns when they refer to Him.
(Note - They look nothing like humans)
Tell me... What would you think of those people, and their confident belief?
Also note that, regarding ANY religion on this planet, past and present, that competes with your own, you already think this of them... And they are even human.
You really need to try to step out of your box of dogma... I'm not asking you to change what you believe... I am mearly trying to get you to look at it from a different light. Don't you owe that to yourself? To look at it from all angles, instead of JUST ONE? Especially when that one angle doesn't agree with some things we know reality to be?
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