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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:02am PT
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Didn't Jesus also teach that his followers should not judge others, but leave that up to God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:09am PT
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Norton- "This passage condemns humane sacrifice but admits that it happened by early God worshipers."
Yes, exactly what I was talking about in regards to "Numbers" above. God over and over again told His people not to mix and take wives from the pagan culture because they would also take up their practice of child/human sacrifice. So over and over again he brought judgment down on the pagan tribes and the Israelite's.
Jan, the story of Abraham and Isaac was a story of Abraham's faith. And secondly, a preview of what would happen on the very same Mtn. that Abraham brought Isaac to(Moriah)where the Son of God was sacrificed for all mankind. If you have failed to make this connection to the story of Abraham and Isaac, and Jesus(i don't believe you have)then...
What is admiral about it is that Abraham had faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead. He(Abraham was promised on several occasions that he would raise up a great nation from the loins of Abraham, that being Isaac. The only son of Abraham and Sarah(pure Hebrews). God promised to do so, so he believed he was capable of doing what he promised. That was incredible faith. A personal relationship. Not dependent on word of mouth/book knowledge, or personal wisdom, etc. He new the living God, and trusted Him.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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Jan- "Human sacrifice happened all over the world... Eventually most societies gave it up though it seems to be alive and well in some places still."
Yes, how about in good old America?
With well over 50 million abortions in the last 40 years!
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I set you apart..." Jeremiah 1:5
And people question why God's wrath would come down on America! He gives people a living soul at conception, this is what the Bible teaches us. If you don't believe the Bible, that doesn't change what it says. But then, you can discuss this with God at the judgment(just sayin, if it just happens to be true). I am certain it is...100% sure. If you are not certain(100% sure)then i would strongly consider giving it(Jesus being the only way)some serious thought, and asking Him to come into your life if He is real. What have you got to lose?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:31am PT
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Jan- "Didn't Jesus also teach that His follower's should not judge others, but leave that up to God?"
No!
Jesus taught that His followers were not to judge other believers, fellow brothers in Christ! He taught them to judge non-believers as He did judge the Pharisee's , etc.!
edit: What i warned Norton about is what will happen to him if he doesn't turn from his wicked beliefs, plain and simple. That is done in hope that he will turn. And i have hope that he will, but only God knows for sure. Otherwise i wouldn't wast my time replying to his posts. Call it judgmental if you must, but God has commanded us to warn the lost(including Norton)of where they are heading.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:10am PT
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Well in that case, thank God that your interpretations are the minority view!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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Yes, how about in good old America?
With well over 50 million abortions in the last 40 years!
Please, whenever you are going to quote numbers like that, cite your source for edification and verification.
You appear to be correct in that, but if you're implying that the US is particularly egregious in performing abortions, perhaps you might want to reconsider, according to this study:
Worldwide abortion rates 1995
scroll down the page to find the table comparing abortion incidence
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Skepti,
Yes, i gave a conservative estimate of 50 million! Your chart says 1,365,700 abortions for the year of 1996 in The United States. I was not comparing America to other countries rate/ratio, etc. Of course some of these countries have more abortions per capita. i was referring to the gross number, and the flagrant guilt of the American populace, who continue to murder the innocent in the face of the what God has to say in regards to life beginning at conception. America has been confronted with this head on. And is guilty of allowing it. America is going to be held accountable for its actions. Like i said, with churches and preachers and Bibles at everyone's disposal, it knows what the God of the Holy Bible states, and chooses to ignore it/Him. He will judge America. You can say "Hogwash!" or i don't believe that!" I say "Doesn't change what God/Bible says he will do! Judgment is coming America, mark my words!"
The Nation(America)was confronted with a national catastrophe(the banking colapse)with major banks closing/declaring bankruptcy, and so forth. It could have been ten times worse then 1929. What did it do? Turned all it's hopes to a man to solve it's problems(not God).
So God gave them the man of their choosing(Obama). And what did he(Obama)do the very next day(after being elected)? The VERY NEXT DAY! His first presidential action was to sign and set forth the paperwork/legal actions to have abortions during the third trimester legal!! How hideous, and evil! Abortions legal from 7-9 months! And this guy calls himself a Christian? I didn't vote for this/him. The very first thing he did the day after he was elected. He didn't even wait until after his inauguration. And not a word of dissent was spoken from the right or left.
And secondly, the abomination that is taking place in our nation regarding the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, and homosexual rights, etc....!
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light, and light for darkness..." Isaiah 5:20
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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Trippy-
Is there any reason you believe abortion should be allowed for? (please answer this if possible.)
Again, this boils down to our previous exchanges- Your version of morality is absolutely your right, but you cannot constitutionally justify forcing me to live by those rules.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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Jan,
Matthew 7:1-5 He is telling us to not judge hypocritically "You hypocrite, first remove the plank in your own eye, then you can see clearly to remove the speck in your brothers eye." There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise-with careful discernment. "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24
This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope, and with the ultimate goal of bringing repentance in the other person.
"Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:20
We are to speak the truth in love. "Instead, speaking the truth in love..." Ephesians 4:15
"Preach the Word, be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction." 2 Timothy 4:2
We are to judge sin(in the Church and the world)but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and it's consequences-the Lord Jesus Christ "Jesus answered, O am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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Skepti- You can't constitutionally justify foring me to live by those rules."
And i wouldn't even think of let alone suggest forcing anyone to live by these rules. This is where you/the left, or whoever has it wrong. It is the Word of God that will judge. You are guilty for not recognizing the conviction of right vs wrong in your own heart...Gods tablet to your conscience. Forcing someone, or a nation to do something does not change their heart! This is where the problem lay's, not in rules and regulations...Laws. Jesus came to set people free from the bondage of the Law.
You are missing the point if you think it is a legal matter. It is a spiritual matter, and this country is lacking!
Edit: Do as you will, but you will suffer the consequences...that is my message.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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Do as you will, but you will suffer the consequences...that is my message
Message received, understood, disregarded. Thanks for your concern!
Would really like your opinion on what constitutes justifiable abortion though.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Trip7 says:
"And Norton is here bringing upon himself one Hell of an eternal damnation. Norton leading the charge into Hell. So much hate for the God of the Holy Bible filling your soul, Norton."
And THEN he says that Skeptemistic will "suffer the consequences".
Can I PRESUME that Skept will also be joining me in ETERNAL DAMNATION?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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Can I PRESUME that Skept will also be joining me in ETERNAL DAMNATION
All my friends are going to be there! Sure don't want to end up in the same place that the insufferably pious go...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Skeptic- "Would really like your opinion on what constitutes justifiable abortion though."
We are speaking of a matter of faith. Jan questioned Abraham's faith. you are questioning my faith. I have total faith in my Creator. We had a similar situation with my great niece. My sister's daughter's daughter. i had a large part in raising my niece, her father was a casualty of the Viet Nam war, and they lived with us for about 5-6 years. My niece and sister's are Christians, but her grandaughter isn't. They had a situation in which the M.D's said the baby was most likely going to be a veggie(don't like that term, they said brain dead i believe)and that she could/would be risking her life to continue with the pregnancy. I encouraged her to continue on and trust God. It would have been a very deep spiritual journey for all involved. They/grand niece decided otherwise. I assured her that her baby boy was in heaven.
I have seen Him work miracles. I have heard Him speak to me and it came to pass(true). It is a deep and trusting relationship. I trust Him for my total life and death. And if He puts a mortal soul in a being, I trust Him to decide on it's time of death, not me.
In Roe vs Wade, five out of the nine judges decided to legalize abortion. A majority of U.S. citizen's were against it. The lady who was Jane Roe in Roe vs Wade is Norma McCorvey; "I am 100% sold out to Jesus, and 100% pro life! No exceptions, no compromise."(Norma McCorvey)! I have heard her personal testimony and her stating that she was not raped by a black man as she had claimed. It was a consensual relationship, and she had lied about it at the behest of her attorney's, along with other lies and fabrications which she believed swayed the vote.
It is America's conscience that is on trail. America knows God's will. Jesus and the Holy Bible show us the will of God. There have been several abominations that have been allowed to become new laws in our nation that are completely against God's will and His Holy word.
The nation is now feeling the effects of us drifting further away from the Almighty, and we are experiencing the lifting of His blessings from us.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Oct 25, 2010 - 05:56pm PT
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I am confused by the Christian understanding, disapproval and abhorrence for abortion.
This disapproval is the primary motivating force against abortion in contemporary western culture.
Don’t Orthodox Christians believe the following:
Life's short. The wink of an eye!
And aren’t we all sinners?
And isn’t the road to salvation difficult and narrow?
Don't Christians believe most of us end up in the lake of fire suffering eternal damnation victims of our inevitable sin?
Most of those born, according to this dogma, are destined for eternal suffering in hell. Few make it to the right hand of God. Few are saved from eternal punishment.
But wait a minute, aren’t the innocent unborn protected by the blood of Christ.
Doesn’t each innocent child aborted from this brief experience we call life reap the greater and sure reward of eternal bliss in the presence of God!
Wouldn't the logical Christian feel duty bound to save all potential children from the sinful risks of this brief life and for the better good of his/ her children to seek abortions of all pregnancies and send those very children to a certain eternal bliss?
Christianity, like most belief structures, is caught up in solipsistic and nonsensical dogma.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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Well Trip7, since YOU think public opinion on abortion is SO important.
As follows is the most current national polling on this.
ONLY 19% of Americans believe as you do, that there should be NO abortion.
Clearly, Americans "beliefs" have changed, dramatically,
JUST like American's "beliefs" changed on the women's right to vote,
and on civil rights for minorities.
Both of which, and MANY more through the years, Americans back in time
were opposed to.
Oh heck, here is the latest polling, you can click on it yourself
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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you are questioning my faith
Not in the least. I know and have acknowledged a few times now that you have a profound and unshakable faith. I wish you all the joy in the world.
A majority of U.S. citizen's were against it
Can you back up that claim with a citation? Didn't work the last time you tried to sell me on "the will of the people"
And regarding the actual decision, Roe v Wade was a "right to privacy" decision that did not dictate the legality of abortion. a concurrent decision, Doe v Bolton, allowed abortion throughout the full term, with progressive restrictions in each trimester.
People who want to criminalize abortion seem to be forgetful or ignorant of the history that brought the decision to the forefront. Prior to legalization, abortions were performed in unsterile "back rooms" by anyone who claimed to be able to provide them. As a result, thousands of women were dying or mutilated each year.
Repealing RvW/DvB will not prevent abortions. They will continue as before, only now more women will die. And all because someone thinks their view of morality is "righteous." As I posted earlier, it is NOT the "will of the people" by any stretch of the imagination.
America knows God's will. Jesus and the Holy Bible show us the will of God
Is that the same America that includes all faiths and philosphies, not just your view? Because I'm certainly not "in the know" as you seem to think I am.
The nation is now feeling the effects of us drifting further away from the Almighty
Yeah, my interpretation is a bit different. What I see is that we are, as always, living in a moment that is the result of past decisions. There is no "god" directing the whole shebang. Just average humans making what they think are the best choices and moving ahead. I know you think differently, so you don't need to waste pixels rebutting that statement. I'm comfortable with it, as are billions of others.
Keep America free as the founding fathers intended.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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Norton- "ONLY 19% of Americans believe as you do, that there should be NO abortion."
And ONLY 21% of Americans believe as you do, that there should be legal under ALL circumstances.
edit: it just underlines what i said about the Nation turning away from the will of God and the reason we are experiencing His lack of blessing and protection!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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Skeptic- "didn't work last time when you tried to sell me on the will of the people"
When was that? I thought i cleared that up in my post in regards to the "egregiousness" of the American people? Their glaring, flagrant, extremely bad decisions they have made? In opposition to the will of god that is widely known and preached throughout our country. And has been regarded from the beginning of this great nation up until about 50 or so years of shifting away from it? I wasn't comparing it to other country's which are not as accountable as America!
"the last time" i gave a conservative estimate of the number of abortions that have taken place in America since R vs W, 50 million, and as you stated, it seemed correct. What are you claiming?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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"the last time" i gave a conservative estimate of the number of abortions that have taken place in America since R vs W, 50 million, and as you stated, it seemed correct. What are you claiming?
Uh, I think there's a disconnect here between us. Perhaps re-read my last post to be sure what I've rebutted.
Basically, you've claimed that "the majority of Americans were against Roe v Wade" at the time of the decision, and I asked you to cite a poll from that era that supports your claim.
I also pointed out that you tried previously to claim that the majority of Americans are currently in favor of overturning said decision. So I had posted the same Gallup poll Norton has also now posted, showing that the overwhelming majority of Americans support keeping abortion legal in at least certain circumstances.
So please show me your cites for your abortion claims. Thank you.
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